Feeder Fish without Thiaminase?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Isn't it true that earthworms are lacking in some important nutrients, especially calcium. For baby snakes with growing bones I would imagine they need a good amount of this nutrient.

[d_virginiana]

Unless you feed solely earthworms this is not a problem, and it can be easily remedied by adding a typical reptile calcium powder or shaved cuttlebone to the worm pieces.

[AntTheDestroyer]

But you don't recommend feeding fish? So you only recommend feeding a mixture of earthworms and mice?

[guidofatherof5]

Isn't it true that earthworms are lacking in some important nutrients, especially calcium. For baby snakes with growing bones I would imagine they need a good amount of this nutrient.

This can depend on what they were fed or the soil they came from. Many people dip the worm tail in a calcium supplement before feeding.

[joeysgreen]

Ant, I recommend feeding all of the above. Garter snakes are generalist feeders and this variety counter balances any nutritional deficit each individual item may have.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

We generally caution against fish because it is so easy to encounter potentially fatal substances in them that cause problems either quickly or over the long-term. I feed mine primarily mice and they do fine. They get the occasional worm. I know some people on here feed primarily worms.

Variety is good, but a diet made up solely of mice does contain all the nutrients the snakes need. I have an old one who gets nothing but mice due to his being a finicky eater and me needing to cram as much nutrition into him as possible when he'll take food.

[AntTheDestroyer]

My new snake shows no interest in earthworms or mice. He also wont take guppies, but had no problem taking a rosy red. Getting him to eat was quite a relief to me because he is so small. I think the plan now is to scent mice with rosy reds until I can get him to switch over. After that I may still supplement with a rosy red every now and again just to get some variety.

[d_virginiana]

Don't use rosy reds. If he likes fish, buy a pack of frozen silversides at your local pet store or even go to a bait shop and buy silver-colored minnows. Rosy reds are known to contain a deadly compound called thiaminase (discussed earlier in this thread). Never feed a rosy red in anything but a survival situation where your snake is about to starve and will take nothing else. Don't use one just for the sake of variety.

[joeysgreen]

Nutritional deficiencies don't work like that. Thiaminase is not toxic or deadly. It only breaks down vitamin B. So long as there is an appropriate balance, there is no problem with thiaminase. Your snake isn't going to get sick or die because you feed rosy red minnows, so long as it gets enough vitamin B elsewhere in the diet to balance it out. And as discussed, feeding frozen fish is also problematic in regards to thiaminase for two reasons. Freezing ruptures the cells, releasing the enzyme, and the storage of dead fish allows bacteria to produce additional thiaminase. Further, nutritional deficiencies are also non-acute. If the only thing that you can get your snake to eat is rosy red's, then it's better then it not eating. Do what you can to move onto a more balanced diet as soon as you can. If you are worried that you are taking to long with this transition, then you can supplement with adding vitamin B into the diet.

Ian

[AntTheDestroyer]

As I said he will not eat just any fish. I bought him from a well known breeder who fed him rosy reds up until this point. As this point I am more concerned with getting him switched over to mice, then trying to find what other types of fish he will eat. Feeding him mice makes the thiaminase a null point as it does not stay long in the body after ingested and he has another source of B1. Also all minnows are in the family Cyprinidae so I doubt the "silver ones" are much different then rosy reds. Thanks for the input Ian.