Sea Otters: yet another slap in the face!

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, first: Wikipedia is not the end-all to everything. ANYONE can go there and post whatever.

It would help a lot if you could mention something specific about the article that you consider false. I'm not really inclined to defend the wiki principle and I posted it mainly to signify that I'm skeptical about the assertions that were made.

Second: If I'm reading you correctly, I REALLY disagree with you.

I really don't have a problem with that, only the reasons if they don't make sense to me.

To whom are your referring here? Not us -as in the first native Americans? Good heavens, man! Even sapping for maple syrup they gave thanks and only took what was needed.

Teddy Roosevelt slaughtered entire heards, not the indiginous people. He killed more buffalo in one day than the Natives took in weeks in the fall hunt! Back in the 1800s, it was SPORT to shoot buffalo out the windows of the train when going though the west.

The indians are not the only primitive people that has ever existed and neither is it in any way safe to assume that the attitude was universally accepted among them nor that they had always held those views. The reason why it's important to acknowledge that, is that it completely destroys the view that eco-friendliness is something that we (humans) have forgotten.

The first people here were very eco-friendly.

Hard to verify without recorded history.

[Hornets23]

You know....sometimes I lose the point of what is trying to be said. I dont know that it matters who was eco-friendly and who wasnt. I dont even know if the point is whether we will actually suffer any consequences or not for trashing the environment. Perhaps the same changes would occur with or without us, though i strongly doubt it. I think the thing that matters is that we all, as human beings and citizen of the planet should feel some responsibility to protect what we can and do the things that we know will be beneficial for nature. I hate it when people put progress above everything and pretend that we an not adversely affecting the enviornment. Thats just a general gripe I have about society and the views I sometimes hear.

[Stefan-A]

You know....sometimes I lose the point of what is trying to be said. I dont know that it matters who was eco-friendly and who wasnt. I dont even know if the point is whether we will actually suffer any consequences or not for trashing the environment. Perhaps the same changes would occur with or without us, though i strongly doubt it. I think the thing that matters is that we all, as human beings and citizen of the planet should feel some responsibility to protect what we can and do the things that we know will be beneficial for nature. I hate it when people put progress above everything and pretend that we an not adversely affecting the enviornment. Thats just a general gripe I have about society and the views I sometimes hear.

I agree, for the most part.

Drastic changes can and have occurred countless times before without our interference, but for different reasons, obviously. That doesn't mean we're not responsible for what we're doing or that we shouldn't work to prevent it from happening if we have the ability, but I know it only matters to us. "Mother Nature" couldn't care less.

[Hornets23]

Of course...I dont actually think mother nature "cares". I just think that for our own good, we should at least care. If we dont, than I would highly question our character.

[Garter_Gertie]

Stefan, you're nitpicking again and not looking at things at face value.

Wikipedia - and I've not specific article in mind as I don't need one - is based on the premise anyone can post knowledge there. There are no restraints other than "This has not been quoted from a specific source," etc. The majority of what you use to back you up is from Wikipedia. And for me, that's not good enough. *I* could go post blather on there and John Doe would be quoting me in minutes.

Glad you've no problem as I don't either. I don't understand what you don't understand or what doesn't make sense to you.

I got news for you, in the America(s) it WAS universal to give thanks and only take what was needed. If you're speaking of a specific indiginous people, state them. But here, prior to and after all hunts/forages/harversting/etc. ceremonies were preformed. For a good hunt/forage/harvest/etc. and then to give thanks for was was gotten.

And this IS recorded history. As is the reference to Teddy Roosevelt. I live in MN where we have Ojibway and Dakota natives. They've much recorded history that I've been privy to. Not to mention photographs. There's recorded history from the early whites here - and how the sky would go dark with passenger pidgeons. Hundreds would be shot from the sky at once. It would take me hours, days, weeks to find the references as these are things I've learned over the years being with the people of MN, but I probably could do it.

Sometimes, Stefan, you need to take things at face value and believe. Not everything in this world is black or white.

[Garter_Gertie]

Actually, Stefan... Maybe you're more asking people to stretch their minds than nitpicking. You ever been on a debate team? Sad if not.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, you're nitpicking again and not looking at things at face value.

Wikipedia - and I've not specific article in mind as I don't need one - is based on the premise anyone can post knowledge there. There are no restraints other than "This has not been quoted from a specific source," etc. The majority of what you use to back you up is from Wikipedia. And for me, that's not good enough. *I* could go post blather on there and John Doe would be quoting me in minutes.

Like I said, I have no desire to defend the wiki principle and I'm not quoting anything from wikipedia, either, so I absolutely reject what you're saying about me using wikipedia to back me up. I posted a link to an article on the concept of the noble savage, which is something more people definitely should be aware of, although they don't necessarily have to read about it from wikipedia alone.

I got news for you, in the America(s) it WAS universal to give thanks and only take what was needed. If you're speaking of a specific indiginous people, state them. But here, prior to and after all hunts/forages/harversting/etc. ceremonies were preformed. For a good hunt/forage/harvest/etc. and then to give thanks for was was gotten.

The (pre)history of humans in the Americas go much further back than the 1490's, not to mention the rest of the world. Is it really necessary for me to point out the reason why it mattered to the discussion we were having?

Sometimes, Stefan, you need to take things at face value and believe. Not everything in this world is black or white.

Come on, that's exactly what you're saying here by telling me to take it at face value: That it really is white (or black). The whole idea I've been trying to get across here, is that it's not black or white and that the truth, as usual, probably lies somewhere in between.

[Stefan-A]

Actually, Stefan... Maybe you're more asking people to stretch their minds than nitpicking.

Something along those lines. I don't want anybody to take what I say at face value, people should feel free to reject anything I say, but it is healthy to at least test other ideas before rejecting them.

You ever been on a debate team? Sad if not.

Finns don't debate.

[adamanteus]

Finns don't debate.

I beg to differ!

[Stefan-A]

I beg to differ!

An exception that proves the rule? Can I get away with saying that?