Anyone care to help me out with an essay?

[Stefan-A]

I never put much stock in what teachers claim, especially when it's a matter of hearsay even when they repeat it. I prefer doublechecking everything they say.

The only "evidence" of somebody called Jesus from that area is in fact a few mentions written down as hearsay several decades to several centuries after his alleged resurrection. There are photos of Elvis stone dead in the morgue and people still think he's still alive. His life and death are well documented, but there are still some pretty fantastic stories going around regarding his supposed fate. There's a reason why anecdotal evidence isn't considered reliable.

I have heard of lots of people who try to prove the Bible wrong, and to date, (2000 years or so), no one has been able to. Even non-Christian historians say, "It's a great history book".

Seriously, apart from the obviously unprovable parts of the bible, there are numerous factual errors, including historical ones. The quickest way to find them, is to surf the net and look up sites that are critical of the claims made in the bible. I really don't like mocking people's faiths, but the fact of the matter is that the bible doesn't contain much history (if any).

I too have carried my share of caskets these last few years (my own grandmother's just over a year ago), but I'm no closer to having faith.

[Cazador]

We're treading into dangerous waters here, since many people devote their entire life and existence toward their beliefs (Christians, Muslims, Hindis, Buddhists, etc.). Discrediting these beliefs can be akin to saying that their purpose in life is without merit. So with mutual respect for everyone, I'll simply offer Tim the story that my mother-in-law considers evidence of an afterlife from her personal experience.

Several decades ago, my mother-in-law was undergoing a hysterectomy. The anesthetic began to wear off, and she could hear the physicians and nurses saying that she needed more anesthetic quickly. They gave her more anesthetic, and she lost awareness again. Then she had another complication. When they were sewing some blood vessels together, their permeability increased. The doctors were having great difficulty sewing them together because they kept tearing, and she began to bleed out.

Sometime during this event, she saw "the bright light," and it gave her a sense of peace, warmth, comfort, etc. As she approached the light, she basked in its glow and enjoyed the experience. Then she realized what was happening, and SHE told it that she couldn't come "now" because she still had a young teenager at home who needed her care. Then the light seemed to become smaller, and the vision faded away. She says that the light was very warm and inviting, and she wanted to go; but felt her obligation was to her young teenager at home. She survived the operation and interprets this experience as evidence of the afterlife.

Yes, there are many other possible interpretations, but this is the closest thing I have toward fulfilling Tim's original request.

Rick

[KITKAT]

(Snippet 1The only "evidence" of somebody called Jesus from that area is in fact a few mentions written down as hearsay several decades to several centuries after his alleged resurrection.

(Snippet 2I really don't like mocking people's faiths, but the fact of the matter is that the bible doesn't contain much history (if any).

I told myself when this thread started, that I would stay off of the religious themes and what I know about them... but did want to respectfully disagree with the two snippets quoted above.

First, Josephus records the history of the very early church. Josephus was a Jew, and not a believer in Christianity. One thing is clear from his writings... the people who were living immediately after the claimed ressurrection did question the validity of what Jesus had taught during His life, but they did not question that his death and subsequent appearing before many people was a hoax. In addition, we have actual whole copies of New Testament writings in posession today, which are carbon dated at 60 A.D, which would be 30 some years after Jesus died.

In the second snippet, however, my disagreement is more immediately and easily provable. Archaeologists are STILL finding, and CONSTANTLY finding, lost cities and civilizations that they find based upon Biblical text. The clues provided in the Bible have always been accurate enough that the archaeologists are able to find the lost city, the burned library, and etc. by starting with the Biblical text as a reference point. The Bible is very much FULL of history.

But I agree with Cazador that near death experiences seem to be the most unbiased and modern examples which suggest evidence for an afterlife. Some things about near death experiences that interest me are that:

1. Everyone in a true near death experience sees some version of the light tunnel, and the light tunnel seems to be hard-wired into the brain.

2. Everyone in a true near death experience has the feeling of being "out of body" and this sensation also seems to be hard-wired into the brain.

(These two experiences can be duplicated during brain surgery by stimulation of a certain area of the brain.)

3. Some people who have had near death experiences have reported events that surrounded their near death... that they could not have known. For example, a child reports that he travelled toward a light, out of his body, floated up to the ceiling, floated out into the waiting room, and heard Aunt "Gertrude" say something that he could not have heard from the treatment room where his body lay.

4. Reports of events outside the room are rare, and cannot be duplicated during brain surgery.

5. Near death experiences sometimes report meeting someone at the entrance to "heaven", meeting relatives who have died, and so forth. There are one or two reports of someone meeting a dead relative that the reporting person did not know was dead at the time... such as a boy who met his dead parents after a car crash.

6. When the person with the near death experience meets a religious person that is central to his faith, that religious person tends to be the one that is associated with the faith of the person making the report... for example, Christians see Jesus, Jews may see Moses, Buddists may see Buddah, etc.

[Stefan-A]

I told myself when this thread started, that I would stay off of the religious themes and what I know about them... but did want to respectfully disagree with the two snippets quoted above.

I told myself the same thing when I first came to this forum, it's guaranteed to be controversial. Feel free to disagree, I don't mind at all. But I'm not that easily convinced, either. There will be a lot of issues to cover, so I'll keep my comments short.

First, Josephus records the history of the very early church. Josephus was a Jew, and not a believer in Christianity. One thing is clear from his writings... the people who were living immediately after the claimed ressurrection did question the validity of what Jesus had taught during His life, but they did not question that his death and subsequent appearing before many people was a hoax.

It appears to me that the vast majority of the population in that area dismissed the story of his resurrection as BS from the very beginning. Not that it matters, it's still argumentum ad populum.

In addition, we have actual whole copies of New Testament writings in posession today, which are carbon dated at 60 A.D, which would be 30 some years after Jesus died.

Several decades (Elvis died about 30 years ago). It's still anecdotal and hardly evidence of anything, least of all that the events they describe are factual.

In the second snippet, however, my disagreement is more immediately and easily provable. Archaeologists are STILL finding, and CONSTANTLY finding, lost cities and civilizations that they find based upon Biblical text. The clues provided in the Bible have always been accurate enough that the archaeologists are able to find the lost city, the burned library, and etc. by starting with the Biblical text as a reference point. The Bible is very much FULL of history.

Such as?
That somebody who looks for something actually finds something is hardly surprising. I remember this one guy, who tried to find a western route to India.. You know the rest. What accurate clues are there in the bible and what lost cities and civilizations have been found specifically thanks to these clues? How many false leads have there been?

Anybody care to give Jesus' divinity a try?

[FitnessFreak]

I never put much stock in what teachers claim, especially when it's a matter of hearsay even when they repeat it. I prefer doublechecking everything they say.

The only "evidence" of somebody called Jesus from that area is in fact a few mentions written down as hearsay several decades to several centuries after his alleged resurrection. There are photos of Elvis stone dead in the morgue and people still think he's still alive. His life and death are well documented, but there are still some pretty fantastic stories going around regarding his supposed fate. There's a reason why anecdotal evidence isn't considered reliable.

Seriously, apart from the obviously unprovable parts of the bible, there are numerous factual errors, including historical ones. The quickest way to find them, is to surf the net and look up sites that are critical of the claims made in the bible. I really don't like mocking people's faiths, but the fact of the matter is that the bible doesn't contain much history (if any).

I too have carried my share of caskets these last few years (my own grandmother's just over a year ago), but I'm no closer to having faith.

jesus christ of nazareth(i think its how it is spelt) is not only recorded in the bible, he is recorded in roman history

whether or not he was god's son, i do not know. but there is substantial evidence that he did exist.

[Stefan-A]

jesus christ of nazareth(i think its how it is spelt) is not only recorded in the bible, he is recorded in roman history

whether or not he was god's son, i do not know. but there is substantial evidence that he did exist.

I assume you are referring to Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, who weren't even born until well after Jesus' death and could not possibly have had any first hand knowledge.

[FitnessFreak]

I assume you are referring to Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, who weren't even born until well after Jesus' death and could not possibly have had any first hand knowledge.

ya but dude come on jesus did exact it is almost fact.

whether or not he was the son of god is debatable but whether or not he existed really isn't.

[Snaky]

I've never done any historical checks myself, but have been told by historics that there are to many evidences found that there was indeed someone called "Jezus" and that he lived during that time. Now that said, I don't think the bible is a history book and it has never had the intention to be one. In my eyes it's more like a guideline and something to think about. It's about persons who indeed lived during that time, but was written by stories that where told and remembered.

About the afterlife I strongly believe there is none. I think once you died, you're dead. The whole functioning of our body and what happens when we die is already nicely described in previous posts, so no need to repeat. I only think that we've evolved so much, that we needed a reason to accept death. But in my eyes you don't need a reason, accept life and live it to the fullest. I know that a lot is spoken about a white light, hearing something in the next room, ... while having near death situations. But I think this is no prove of anything. The white light can only be a last reaction of the brains, some kind of dream like when you sleep. The same with something told, it can be that by accident somebody else heart, told it while you could hear it or that something like that happened before and you're recalling that memory and changing it to something that happened today... There are endless possibilities, but it can never be said that something like that is prove of an afterlive, it's not a fact.

Well, I never thought I'd post something like this on a forum... This is only my opinion, I hope I'm not offending somebody as these kind of things can be very personal to some.

[RedSided]

yikes, that was a lot of reading. Obviously this is something that many of you are able to contribute to . Cheers. There is a lot to consider, as all of you have a different perspective on things.

[RedSided]

Remeber try not to let it cause tension, I can already see divisions in belief.There are some very good points.I my self stand on the middle ground,

Yes death is enevitable, we rot and produce gas and we smell bad,various reactions take place and we cease to be.You can't argue about that.

What is arguable on many levels is the validity of near death experience, ghosts, and other phenomenon associated with the afterlife.

These are the things we cannot prove indefinately either way, is it real or is it simply a trick of the mind?


As for the bible, I will offer my opinion. It is perfectly valid to say that Jesus my well have exsited and he may have done all these amazing things,or he may not have.I am willing to accept either if there is sound proof.The fact that the bible contradictics its self in many ways is inevitable, with so many large accounts having translated into english from ancient texts and so on.

Something I just want to touch on lightly now is UFO's .Someone mentioned this to me a while back and im not usualy big on conspiracy theorys and UFO's so im just testing the water with this one.

He said, in some parts of the bible God is described as what we would say if we saw today , a UFO. I think somewhere I mentions wheels of fire within wheels of fire, please by all means tear it to pieces if it is way off the mark because I have not read up on it my self.