Codom Hypo? Then explain this....

[ConcinusMan]

Lol, there is more than one of us on this forum that understand mutation genetics in depth! Myself included!

Yeah, but you don't have the gift of explaining it so I can understand it better. You just confuse me.

I think the reason these have flew under the radar so long is because even the neon babies wil darken up some, and I bet the majority will darken enough to pass as normals to the inexperienced.

Perhaps, but I just don't see those ever looking like normals. I mean, look at their heads. That's crazy. I know you've mentioned the head pattern before and even showed pics and I couldn't see any difference. But these guys are another story. Even if they did darken up, they're obviously different.

Here's a pic of the pastel you sent to me. This is Olivia. I initially loved how bright white her base color was, and also the tinge of neon green. Well, she's darkened up quite a bit. That green turned dark olive, and kind of "dirtied" up her bright white. Still, a very good looking checkered though but I don't see any crazy head pattern on her at all. Looks normal to me. Of course naturally her head is blurred here but it looks normal, pattern-wise. Anyway, she's great. Much nicer color IMO from the usual drab looking brownish normals.

[Mexicofan]

Hallo,

, my Postbox is opened 24h for the little´s. Incredible these coloures.

A shame that America is seperated by an Ocean from Europe. If not I allready would sit in my car

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yeah, but you don't have the gift of explaining it so I can understand it better. You just confuse me.

you can say that again :P I could have gone into detail but I was typing with my phone... I don't usually have the patience anyways!

Perhaps, but I just don't see those ever looking like normals. I mean, look at their heads. That's crazy. I know you've mentioned the head pattern before and even showed pics and I couldn't see any difference. But these guys are another story. Even if they did darken up, they're obviously different.

They WILL change a good bit as they grow. I can guarantee it. They are not going to darken up and look normal, but they are not going to look like THAT as adults... I will lay money on it. As they grow and their head expands, the swirling on the head moves back and stays relatively smaller compared to the rest of the head which does fill in with some normal patterning. The middle of each scale begins to get a small dot of darkness on it as they expand. I am watching it happen with mine now as I watched it happen with my male. The one thing I am really trying to figure out, is how the other parents influence the babies. It must be so, because every batch of pastels looks completely different. And these babies that he has here, are from the same line as mine. These look like Steve's Bumblebee girl that he had last year.

Here's a pic of the pastel you sent to me. This is Olivia. I initially loved how bright white her base color was, and also the tinge of neon green. Well, she's darkened up quite a bit. That green turned dark olive, and kind of "dirtied" up her bright white. Still, a very good looking checkered though but I don't see any crazy head pattern on her at all. Looks normal to me. Of course naturally her head is blurred here but it looks normal, pattern-wise. Anyway, she's great. Much nicer color IMO from the usual drab looking brownish normals.

I told you that was going to happen!! :P I said, don't be disappointed cause she won't always be a light lime green color! But no matter what they look like as babies, they always disappoint a bit when they color down. They don't -all- have the crazy head pattern, just most of them do to some degree. When i look at that picture of her I still clearly see a pastel. She's got the glow that normals lack, and her screwy neck pattern with the thick uneven black gives it away. Her albino pastel sister did not have a funky head pattern at all. Simply put, not all pastels are the same, the vary greatly and none of them seem to fit into all the rules. But it was very apparent at birth that that's what she was! And then my other clutch of pastels was pretty darned funky! Looked nothing at all like your female, but they were all sired by the same pastel male... who has quite a swirly head pattern and even as an adult is distinctly different. I have met other pastels that did not have the head pattern thing going. They are all different. I remember when I bought my male, he was a nice bright white little thing! He darkened up considerably.

[HazAnga]

Is love to get another pastel that's unrelated to any of mine to work with that.
I agree that those are wicked awesome babies you have there and there deff something different about then.

[Jeff B]

Hey Brad,
As you well know I purchased a pair of "hypo" from you in 2009 and I kept a female. This spring I bred her to my granite male, I am hopefull that she is gravid although will likely be a small litter as she is still on the small side. I have attached two photos of her that I took tonight plus a photo of the two granites that I produced last year. She still has a very light colored head and bright pastel yellow.
I want to suggest a little different take. If you take a close look at the pattern change with these new babies it reminds me of the granite, maybe low grade or other genes suppressing the full effect or something based on what is causing the "hypo" or "pastel" effect. The head pattern and also the body pattern on two of those lighter babies you produced look an aweful lot like the granite to me. So I wonder if you either have hets for granite which I have been told is a recessive gene in the mix of your breeders, or I wonder if the "hypo" or "pastel" could be a visual het for granite? I would have thought that someone would have noticed this before if the latter where true though. I personally would not know as the only production I have personally done is granite to granite breeding which yeilded granite which doesn't provide any info.
I guess you could also be looking at both of your parents were low grade "hypo/pastels" and the new babies that you produced are "homozygous" codom aka "supers" that just happen to resemble granites.
IF my "hypo/pastel" female that I got from you that was bred to the granite does produce for me it will be interesting to see what the babies look like, I was assuming that there would be normals and "hyp/pastels" at about 50/50 ratio and all would be het granite.
The obvious breeding to do now is take those new "special" babies and breed to each other and to completely unrelated normal and see what you get.

[Jeff B]

Brad,
I cut the color saturation just a bit on your photo and they look like granites all the more to me. Also I see two slightly different "normal" types in that litter, which makes me really lean that the "hypo/pastel" is a slightly visual het for the recessive granite gene. Also looking again at the two parents pics that you posted and are calling normals, they could easily be or qualify as "hypo/pastels". This is just one possiblity as food for though, of course this could prove to be completely wrong, but something to consider.

[BChambers]

Jeff, it's curiouser and curiouser. I agree that with a little squinting one MIGHT be able to imagine that at least that male might be a dark "Pastel"-but boy I hope not, as that sure could just as easily be confused for an attractive individual of our local marcianus hereabouts. I'm looking forward to your results from the female you got from me in 09-that may tell us something if your theory is correct. i need to pick up som granites-should have done so previously.

[ConcinusMan]

That's an interesting possibility Jeff but I thought people (Shannon perhaps?) had already bred pastel to pastel and no super form, and certainly no granites have been produced from such a breeding.

It was my understanding that she's bred these enough to know that breeding a pastel to a normal will produce some pastels and that breeding pastel to pastel still doesn't produce granites or any super form. Of course, if hets and homozygous both appear to be pastel, that confuses the matter.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I do not think they are the same.... they don't look like granites to me! I can kinda see the resemblance, and I can definitely see how you made that connection, It just doesn't make total sense because I once bred a visual pastel to a WC female and I got pastels right off the bat...pastels that were bright white like those babies pictured. I bred the same male to an unrelated nonpastel albino female and I got... pastels and normals, albinos and albino pastels. As they grow up, they darken and don't stay so bright, unlike the granites that keep their contrast and brightness. The granite pattern is also more refined... and my het granites were totally normal looking, fairly dull examples of marcianus. I think they are two totally different genes with a similar phenotype... at least as babies. Kinda like the spider and woma ball python. Different genes, somewhat similar look. As adults, the difference is clear because the pastels brown out some.

[ConcinusMan]

I remember you were saying something about the codminant pastel being really "incomplete" dominant instead of codominant. Think that maybe it's possible that even homozygous pastels could appear totally normal, as in, they are pastel genotype, but normal phenotype? I'm not even sure if this fits into the breeding results. It's getting confusing, loL.