Surprise Birth

[BUSHSNAKE]

call it a cross...infernalis x concinnus, that would be politicaly correct, not an intergrade

[ConcinusMan]

Whatever, I'm sick of hearing it. Go ahead and call it a cross. I don't consider it a hybrid. To me a "cross" is just another term for hybrid. It is not a hybrid.

I also keep hearing, "if it happens in captivity it's not an intergrade" Horse pucky. Whether it happens in captivity or not, if it also happens in the wild, it's an intergrade. I sure as heck am not going to call it a hybrid.

T.sirtalis concinnus X T.sirtalis infernalis happens in the wild. T.sirtalis concinnus X T. sirtalis fitchii happens in the wild. T. sirtalis concinnus X T.sirtalis pickeringii happens in the wild. So, being how they are all t.sirtalis, how are they NOT an intergrade whether it happens in the wild, or in captivity?

BTW, did you also notice how they are all the same family and species? NOT a hybrid. T. radix X T.sirtalis (any ssp.), now that is a hybrid.

[drache]

I also keep hearing, "if it happens in captivity it's not an intergrade" Horse pucky. Whether it happens in captivity or not, if it also happens in the wild, it's an intergrade. I sure as heck am not going to call it a hybrid.

just because their range overlaps and intergrades do happen, once a snake is captive one cannot tell what part of their range they came from unless there is documentation which in most cases there isn't
so you really cannot say with any certainty that these animals would have met and mated in the wild - just a technicality
I've noticed that you'd like to stretch that intergrade term to apply even to matings between sirtalis subspecies that could have never met in the wild
methinks you must either love the word, or it's something about not wanting to label something a hybrid when most other people would

[ConcinusMan]

just because their range overlaps and intergrades do happen, once a snake is captive one cannot tell what part of their range they came from unless there is documentation which in most cases there isn't
so you really cannot say with any certainty that these animals would have met and mated in the wild.

Your point escapes me.

I've noticed that you'd like to stretch that intergrade term to apply even to matings between sirtalis subspecies that could have never met in the wild
methinks you must either love the word, or it's something about not wanting to label something a hybrid when most other people would

Didn't mean to give that impression. I know it sounds a bit like a contradiction, but certainly, I wouldn't call a T.sirtalis sirtalis X t.sirtalis concinnus an intergrade. For obvious reasons, that would never happen in the wild.

I have already listed some western sirtalis subspecies that do intergrade in the wild. To say that the same thing happening in captivity is NOT an intergrade seems a bit ridiculous. All these western subspecies of sirtalis share common genes and ancestry from very recent (geologically speaking) times. Like I said before, as you travel from concinnus to infernalis range, or concinnus to fitchii, or concinnus to pickeringii range, the snakes slowly transition from one form to the other.

It's like you an extraterrestrial intelligence right now debating over whether or not a human from India breeding with a human from northern Africa is a hybrid. Of course they aren't.

But when it comes to something like T. radix breeding with T. ordinoides, that would be like homo sapiens breeding with homo erectus. NOT the same thing!

[drache]

perhaps what's bothering me is that I enjoy neat categories, so to me there is always a difference between what may happen in the wild and what happens in the purview of humans
there is generally more space and more choice to an animal in the wild than in a captive setting
some of the definitions I read even go so far as to say that the term intergrade refers to an actual population, rather than isolated cases existing in areas of overlap, and that these populations are distinguishable from both of the parent populations while having characteristics of both
for the purposes of friendly relations though, I'll just accept that your terminology is different

[Napta]

According to the French forum, intergrading is the product of two subspecies, while the hybrid is the product of two different species.

Example:
T. Sirtalis "Titi" X T. Sirtalis "Toto" = intergrade.
Proximus T. X T. Radix = hybrid.

Maybe we do not actually use the same definitions.
It should also differentiate between fertils hybrids or not.

Napta

[MasSalvaje]

It's like you an extraterrestrial intelligence right now debating over whether or not a human from India breeding with a human from northern Africa is a hybrid. Of course they aren't.

That may be the case if humans had sub-species.

The example you gave would be like us debating if an anery concinnus that breeds with a "normal" concinnus would be a hybrid or an integrade.

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

Go ahead and call it a cross. I don't consider it a hybrid. To me a "cross" is just another term for hybrid.

Well is it a hybrid, or isn't it? It sounds like you're acknowledging that it's a hybrid, but choose to use the word "cross" as a simple euphemism for what you know it really is.

I also keep hearing, "if it happens in captivity it's not an intergrade" Horse pucky. Whether it happens in captivity or not, if it also happens in the wild, it's an intergrade. I sure as heck am not going to call it a hybrid.

I can't tell you what you must call it, but I can tell you that it's not a bloody intergrade. We've been through this already, that term has a specific meaning in biology and "cross", or "hybrid" or whatever you want to call a mix of two taxa, does not fit that definition.

[Napta]

I said a bad word to use on my part, for the intergrade it is a mixture of "locality" and not subspecies. And some scientists believe it is not intergrade if these animals could not occur in nature because of natural barriers, even if they are interfertile.

So, I don't know... Geography is not my thing

Napta

[ConcinusMan]

Well is it a hybrid, or isn't it? It sounds like you're acknowledging that it's a hybrid, but choose to use the word "cross" as a simple euphemism for what you know it really is.

I can't tell you what you must call it, but I can tell you that it's not a bloody intergrade. We've been through this already, that term has a specific meaning in biology and "cross", or "hybrid" or whatever you want to call a mix of two taxa, does not fit that definition.

Personally, I generally don't use the term "cross" or "crossbreed" but prefer to call the product of two different species a hybrid. But when I see the terms (cross, crossbreed) used, I think "hybrid". Obviously many people disagree with calling the captive offspring of two different sirtalis subspecies an "intergrade". I can accept that but what term does that leave me to use if it is not a hybrid?

On a side note, I do think it's a bad idea to purposely breed even just different subspecies together but it's becoming apparent that the trend is starting to show itself in the garter snake arena. We've already seen several new members this year with snakes that are the result of breeding two different subspecies, or hybrids. I do realize that accidents happen so as responsible keepers we should do what we can to prevent it.

There are people who insist on doing this on purpose. Not much we can do to stop them but we should discourage it by not buying hybrid or intergrade offspring.