Let's vent:What really ticks you off about the pet trade!

[Bill]

oh well , tried to get something going here . Guess not. Got to go close up shop.by

[Stefan-A]

Stefan-A chances are if you bought from a pet store thats exactly how your reptile was kept. After it came in by the box or barrel they slowly get broken down into smaller groups until the pet shops may only order 6 or 10. So you now see them in a 20 gallon tank on fresh paper or mulch marked up to the full retail price

Nope, all have been captive bred, only the first two came from pet shops. Been to the importer, seen how they house them. The breeders seem to have been Swedish, very strict rules regarding the treatment of animals there. And we're not far behind in this country.

The first shop only had two, the second shop ordered a couple on my request.

[adamanteus]

I think perhaps the situation is worse in the US? In Europe (certainly in the UK) these kind of conditions are not tolerated any more.

[sschind]

I'm going to try to be civil here so please don't be offended by what I have to say. You've brought up several points and I will try to address them one at a time with comments.

First off, I breed reptiles. A few leopard geckos here and a few mountain kingsnakes there. That is what I am assuming you mean by micro breeders. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but we are a far cry from the "backbone of the industry" the big wholesalers sell more in a day than you or I do in a year. We could all go away tomorrow and the reptile trade probably wouldn't even notice.

Second, I know its an abomination but pet stores are in business to make money. Besides breeding I also own a pet store and I can tell you what 90% of the people think is a fair markup would make anyone laugh. I can't tell you how many people come to me wanting to sell their animals at prices that might as well be retail. They think that because I sell bearded dragons for $50.00 I should be falling all over myself to pay them $40.00 for one, or that I should be jumping for joy that they are willing to sell me a leopard gecko for $25.00 because I can sell it for $30.00 and make myself $5.00 in the deal. OK, that's opposite ends of the spectrum but I just brought up my examples to counterpoint yours.

Third, You buy adult animals from me and in a year they are breeding and you are producing offspring and you come to me offering these babies. Do you know how many people want babies, not that many. Most people want something a little bigger People come to me with 2 week old bearded dragons wanting me to pay $40.00 and don't understand when I tell them that by the time they are 2 months old and I can sell them I will have more than $10.00 into them and I will be losing money. Speaking of garter snakes, I have only dealt with a couple of babies but I'd bet it would take me 6 months to get one big enough to feel comfortable selling.

Fourth, Yes, you are right, the conditions in many wholesale facilities is atrocious. I've walked into a few that literally took my breath away. The stench of dead animals was appalling. Believe it or not, I never went back to these places. But, unfortunately many of my competitors either don't realize the situation or do not care. They are happy to pay cheap prices for WC crap just so they can turn around and sell it cheaply to their customers. I won't do that but that is the reason why I can't pay as much as you would like for your animals. They buy a wc piece of crap for $5.00 and sell it for $20.00 You want me to pay $15.00 so I have to sell it for $40.00. Well, I can tell you that 75% of the customers could not care less about where the animal came from. All they see is that I am $20.00 higher than the guy down the road (or the guy at the swap) and they think I am trying to rip them off.

Fifth, If you think it is so easy to get $50.00 for your reptiles why aren't you trying to sell them to the public yourself. Is it because you don't have the time? Well, we do, we have regular store hours and we are here even when we don't want to be. I Think that deserves some sort of reward. Is it because you don't want 20 strangers coming over to your house? Well, we have strangers coming in all the time. Some of them don't think twice about stealing whatever they can get away with. I think putting up with that deserves some sort of reward. Is it because you want to sell everything all at once and be done with it? Well, that is a good thing. For you. Now we have 20 baby snakes that it might take us a year to sell. If we can get them cheaply enough we might even make some money on them.

Sixth, who is this "we" you are referring to when you say "We need to stop buying this crap and start to insist on captive bred animals." because you know what? I agree with you 1000% I only sell CBB animals in my store with the exception of a few things that I may have took in from a customer who tired of them or some animals that I had originally purchased for myself but decided to go in another direction (most of these I try to trade off to other hobbyists however) I would absolutely love for no one to ever buy a wc reptile again. That would put many of my competitors out of business and it would open the door for me. So please, do everything in your power to convince people that a $50.00 CBB bearded dragon is a much better purchase than a $30.00 wc emerald swift. I would thank you and I am sure if he could the almost certainly headed for a quick death emerald swift would thank you.

Seventh, since this is a garter snake forum I am assuming you have an interest in garter snakes. Well, another news flash, there are not that many of us. Most people do not have the patience to deal with a garter snake. Most are rather flighty, they have a tendency to musk, and babies can be a real pain in the...to feed. Why buy something like that when there are so many other choices out there. Besides if they wanted a garter snake chances are they could catch their own.

OK, I've gone on enough. As a fellow breeder I can see your point but hopefully I have made mine a little clearer. The one thing I would hope that you take from all of this is what adamanteus said, "why are you trying to sell back to these people" If they are truly as bad as you claim it should come as no surprise that they act the way they do. I do not know what to tell you to do with your babies. If you lived near me I would say come in and we could talk. I might not be able to offer you what you think your babies are worth but hopefully I could get you to see where I am coming from. I know that you may not be like those people I am referring to in my examples, and you may (or you may not) be saying "you don't sound like the pet store owners I am talking about either" and so we are all well and good about this. I honestly meant nothing I said as an offense and I sincerely hope that you were not offended by anything I did say. I long for the day when I can get out of the retail business and make a living just selling my snakes at shows etc. But until that day comes, if it ever does, I am here doing what I know how to do. We pet store owners may rank right up there with used car salesmen and lawyers when it comes to garnering respect but I would just caution you not to paint us all with the same brush.

[adamanteus]

I wish we had a 'clapping' emoticon! Well done Sschind! A better thought out and worded post I haven't seen in a long time. Kudos.
It is easy for us, as the 'end user' to judge others, but we should remember that there is a financial side to this.... many of us are quick to try to turn a quick buck, when we see the opportunity.... I think Sschind has shown us a little of the real world here, that we might normally try to ignore.
I can see this developing into an interesting and controversial thread, let's keep it civilised and sensible, and have an interesting debate here.

[Bill]

Absolutely! To acheive this you need to make the CB more attractive than the WC.... unfortunately people go off the price first. Can we pursuade the breeders to drop their prices? I doubt that.

I don't think we need to drop our prices at all. What we need to do is educate people. Captive bred animals from reputable breeders are a far better bargain in the long run even at twice the price. The savings of just one vet visit more than off sets the extra cost and is a much more ethical way to purchase an animal. As long as people keep buying these wild caught animals that ultimitly come in from a large wholesale importer these abuses will continue and if the animal survives it will ultimitly end up costing twice the money

[Bill]

Sschind, I am happy to meet you and you did not offend me. It is nice to here that there is a ethical pet store owner out there you are among the few. Let me tell you a little about myself. I am a commercial breeder of panther chameleons. My partner of this island earth herpeticulture works primarily with rare geckos and I do sell my animals to the public on the internet and at reptile shows. I am glad to here that you recognize the importance of captive breeding and the superior quality of a captive vs wild caught. I realize your frustration when someone brings you a baby animal and wants full price for it but I don't recall mentioning any of that. So I think you have grasped the hole point of this thread when I called it let's vent and tossed out a topic.

[infernalis]

I am going to chime in, but be careful, Wayne can sometimes be the king of rants.

James, It has been my intentions from the get go to produce quality snakes at very reasonable prices. (without chopping Scott's legs off doing so)

The best way to combat (I hate the example) Bob, would be to offer captive bred top quality Pugets, for the same price or less, and have lots of them to offer.

The best way to get a flame to everyone who wants a flame, breed as many as you possibly can, without crossing ethics boundaries doing it.

I have a lot more to add, just short on time... I'm sure this thread will stay around a while.

[Bill]

Sschind, If you don't mind I would like to address some of your statements or clearify some of mine.

1st yes the importers do sell more well maybe not in a day than I sell in a year. But then again I don't see them selling to many Quality panther chameleons or Australian and New Calidonian geckos but yes they do sell a hugh amount of animals. Might point was For every animal I sell someone has to go to a pet store and buy a cage,a light fixture,sprayers,bedding,food and on and on. Some body buys a $ 15.00 lizard and can end up spending $500.00 at your store. Buy this I mean the back bone of the industry, Maybe not the best choice of words but I think you get what I'm driving at.


On the second paragragh I agree with you Brother I feel your pain. And the worst part about that is they may leave and never come back. I was trying to look back to the days when I would be in the position of breeding something and then try to sell the babies back to the store. This was my attempt to include more people into this conversation. You are right small animals are not worth as much as something with some size on it. I don't sell my chams. until they are at least 3 monthsold and chams. grow fast.

It looks like I already covered 3


4 Well I agree with you whole hartedly on four. So maybe this thread Is to our mutual benifit. You see I am trying to educate people to the benifits of buying captive bred and here you are trying to provide captive bred in your store. But while your on the subject of things costing more why is it that there always seems to be 2 price scales. Most shop owners want to sell you all the breeding supplies you need at full retail and then you want to base the price you pay to a breeder on what the WC crap sells for. It's no wonder breeders need to ask more for animals. It's a wonder anyone tries to breed anything at all.


5th well I think we already addressed 5 but have you know I work about 12 hours a day in my breeding room. Besides the daily cleaning and feeding I have to clean and feed and gutload the food build cages and on and on. You know what I mean. No sense preeching to you.


6th " We" I mean the consumer. The rest Yeh thats what i am trying to do.


7th well you lost me there. I think you were venting. Feels kind of good ha.


well I think adamanteus missed something. I was not trying to sell back to these people. I was speaking about a wholesaler who I will not name and I was refering to someone selling back to the pet shops. And the rest ,I agree with you. I would also like to take a minute and praise you for your hard work. You are absolutely right when you say that alot of people just don"t get it . They will turn there nose up at a beautiful captive bred bearded dragon at your store and buy some piece of crap down the street because it's $10.00 cheaper. We are on the same side my friend. We need to get the word out and educate people. I wish I did live near by so I could visit your store and we could talk. I would like to shake your hand. I run my business much the same way. Most everything is bred in house. I costs us both alot of money to do it this way. I think of it this way. Sure we could make more money selling the crap. These shops are the reson that every trash day you can find a fish tank or some type of cage out next to the barrels and they tend to be short lived. A business like yours built on honesty and integrity and concern for the animals in your care is an istitution built to withstand the test of time!!!


Hey Sschind , How did it feel to vent brother? Got any other gripes you need to get off your chest? LET"S VENT!!!

[Bill]

I am going to chime in, but be careful, Wayne can sometimes be the king of rants.

James, It has been my intentions from the get go to produce quality snakes at very reasonable prices. (without chopping Scott's legs off doing so)

The best way to combat (I hate the example) Bob, would be to offer captive bred top quality Pugets, for the same price or less, and have lots of them to offer.

The best way to get a flame to everyone who wants a flame, breed as many as you possibly can, without crossing ethics boundaries doing it.

I have a lot more to add, just short on time... I'm sure this thread will stay around a while.

Hey Wayne,LET"S VENT BROTHER!!!!