A disturbing trend, really disturbing

[dashnu]

I agree, and also agreed in the other post. I have caught and released two gravid females this year. In total I have 6 WC Garters currentlly and plan to sex them and keep only 2 females and 2 males (if I even have one). This will give me another year of experience on top of my year + of previouse experience. My biggest concern is damiging the wild population, I feel taking a gravid female does this EXSPECIALLY when failure is an option.

I recently got in touch with Maine.gov and found a very helpful guy who laid down the laws for me. I can not keep any native species snake in Maine without a permit. After talking with him he sent me info to obtain a permit. He aslo ask for my help with a couple projects they have going. For me these laws are not in place for NO reason... the population of snakes is important. I would feel terrible if I had part in hurting that.

[jitami]

Thank you for bringing this up again. There have been some very good points made and it is something that has been bugging me recently as well. Since I'm new to the forum I was beginning to wonder if this was an annual occurrence. Much like the overabundance of kittens in the springtime.

I think part of the problem is that garters give birth at the same time that all the kids are out of school. I think we have some wonderful, caring, intelligent teens on this list. Some are more knowledgeable than others. Heck most of them are constantly teaching me things! The others are still very impressionable and are learning from all of us. I think it's going to take a fine balance of encouraging these young adults to always look at the best interest of the snake and accepting that they are kids. They are learning, and while it's not an excuse, all of us made some really stupid decisions when we were their age.

I want to thank you all for the gentle education I've received here. I tend to research the h*ll out of something before actually doing it, but if it weren't for this trait, and the guidance from this forum, I'd probably have a tank full of babies right now as well.

[crzy_kevo]

i completely agree with all of you and yes i have only been caring for garter for jsut over a month but i have also been fascinated by reptile and snakes especially and am willing to learn more and have learned so much about garters through this forum that i could have never learned from just wikipedia or anywhere else and i am willing to take on the responsibilities of the baby garter snakes that my gravid female will have as well as making sure they are in good health before releasing them into the wild
and i am only going to keep 2 of the male babies for when i start breeding in a couple of years

[infernalis]

Kevin, no one is targeting you here, and I'm sorry if you feel it was.

This is a universal issue, it affects all of us.

And one really important thing that many of us do not even realize, every day hundreds of non registered guests troll our forum for information.

Just click the quick links, scroll down to "who's online" and click that

At any given moment there is way more guests than users reading our posts.

So we need to be very mindful of the messages we send the world here.

When we hear of a 7 year old having baby snakes in a house where the parents don't even like snakes, it scares me for the welfare of those babies.

It is our responsible duty to politely ask them to release those babies

[crzy_kevo]

i never felt like i was being targeted i was just putting it out there that i feel i am ready for such a responsibility even though i am new to keeping these wonderful animals actually right now i am constructing a temporary snake enclosure for the gravid girl to be in until i pick up my 10 gal for her

and i know you have faith in me wayne

[Snake lover 3-25]

I picked up a large female years ago...... and it just so happened to be gravid..... I raised those babies for a few weeks and in that short amount of time I fell in love with the species.... but I knew that I had neither the time or the money to care for them.... so I released all but one... and the female.... since then I have learned so much.... but I never tried to get a gravid female..... I found one.... the only reason I kept her is because she was one of the babies that I had released 2 years ago and she was on the verge of death.... so she had her babies..... and I nade a stupid Mistake....... but that was just enough...... and they are gone..... I want everyone to know that 5 mins is all it takes.... just 5..... and if you even think for a second that it will be easy..... don't do it..... if you think that it is possible for you to forget...... for ven 5 minutes let it go.... give it back...... it won't be worth it....... but if you have the time the money the space the intrest the memory the resources and everything else that you think you may need..... don't breed....... but if you feel that you do have these things and you want to help your population then feed them...... don't give up.... resist the urge to handle them..... resist the urge to keep even one..... even one that you feel you won't be able to care for for many..... maybe even more than 10 full years.....don't keep it..... but I have learned that every time you feed those babies it increases their chances of survival..... and so I feel that it is worth my time and money....... and that I do have the resources..... so I am going to do it..... I don't do this.... any part of it..... to feel included...... or accepted among the people on this site..... and I especially don't do this for myself...... I do this for them..... for the snakes.

[Zephyr]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

[Stefan-A]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

I couldn't disagree with you more. Even if a person is capable of identifying a gravid garter, doesn't mean that the person knows the first thing about keeping, caring for and raising garters or is otherwise suitable for the job. On the contrary, it shows a fairly careless and selfish attitude to do so, even if the person may just be well-meaning and naive.

I also disagree with the point you're making about only taking from areas, that can endure the loss of the female and the offspring. Who here can honestly tell (and I do mean estimate for real, not just guess) whether or not the population can endure it? That one person isn't the only one catching or killing snakes and it adds up quickly. That's one way to reduce a healthy population to a level where it starts to collapse on its own. And like I pointed out in the other thread, catching a gravid female does as much damage to the population, as killing it. If it's about feeling good about having saved a snake's life, then that's something I think is legit, but that's not a real favour. Leaving it alone and hoping that it will escape detection or will avoid being run over by the lawnmower, is already a much safer alternative. Maybe even better than relocation.

[Lumpy]

Every CB Garter can tace it's lineage back to a a WC female, gravid or not. She became gravid at some point either through nature or experienced/inexperienced breeder. For everyone here owning either WC or CB, it sure seems like it would impact the wild Garters bottom line. For all the CB snakes that could have been born to the wild, that's significant, population endurance not withstanding. Everybody who owns a Garter is accountable in that regard.

I saw something on TV recently about the population growth of non native Boas in Florida. They get loose, breed and end up hanging out in someones back yard. Animal control is called in, they catch the snake and who knows what becomes of them. I imagine many are put down. Snakes escape their enclosures all the time. Can this not happen to a responsible owner or breeder? Should they be banned from ever owning a snake based on a judgement call of their abilities? Where do we draw the line?

Should non native species not be allowed importation/exportation because of the problems it might cause? I don't know. So we all start grabbing males. Won't that have an impact to the numbers in the wild as well? Can't careless mistakes be made with them? It is less harmful because babies aren't involved? WC gravid females are just the tip of the iceberg and I certainly think concern is warranted. It's a matter of seeing the forest from the trees.

Lump

[Stefan-A]

Every CB Garter can tace it's lineage back to a a WC female, gravid or not. She became gravid at some point either through nature or experienced/inexperienced breeder. For everyone here owning either WC or CB, it sure seems like it would impact the wild Garters bottom line. For all the CB snakes that could have been born to the wild, that's significant, population endurance not withstanding. Everybody who owns a Garter is accountable in that regard.

Of course it impacts, whether or not a snake is CB or WC. The difference in how big the impact is.

Can this not happen to a responsible owner or breeder?

It's something that happens LESS frequently to responsible people.