The state of the thamnophis hobby

[d_virginiana]

The thing is, with any animal that isn't either
A) So expensive you'd better put the effort into keeping it alive, or
B) A dog, cat, or horse
You're going to get people who just don't care about them and view them as throw-away pets. This happens even with small mammals like rabbits that everyone thinks are adorable and obviously have emotions/reactions that people can understand. It's even worse with animals like snakes that most people have a hard time understanding.
There are already plenty of people with garters out there who are like that I imagine; why else would the less reputable large dealers sell a bunch of offspring from wild-caught females every year at rock bottom prices? Just like with any animal, I think you'll see that the people who bother to look up reputable breeders are going to generally at least be decent owners, and the people who want the cheapest, easiest to obtain animal and buy on a whim are going to typically be poor snake keepers. I do think most of the people who just don't care aren't going to be very noticeable to the garter community as a whole because it is a comparatively very small and close-knit group. Compare that to the bigger ball python communities with 50,000 plus members where no one really knows anyone else except for people who have been around and active for years.
If you don't really care, it's probably a lot easier to post in a community like that than it is in one like this just because of the added feeling of anonymity...

[joeysgreen]

I agree with you Lora, but wouldn't separate the dog/cat/horse since they see just as many low-end owners that view animals as disposable. On the other end of the spectrum, comes a good example from aquaculture. One of the most common fish seen in veterinary medicine is the 50 cent gold fish. Why? Because they are so hardy, it's not hard to keep them alive for eons. The human-animal bond grows, and that is when care (husbandry, veterinary or otherwise) really takes off.

[Albert Clark]

I think the hobby and the business are becoming more and more intertwined. Every one who buys a garter or a ball python wants to get into breeding them. Years ago, you didn't see this. People went to pet shops to get their animals. Like everything change finds its way into and around the status quo. Scott put in his time and as a pioneer in the garter snake world is probably the most respected and well known name. A true loss to the hobby/ industry. His collection and surplus is still around. Others have and will step up. We have to. There is a renewed interest in garter snakes and it needs to be complimented. Yes, I think it's a good thing to see the jump in prices and the number of breeders of garters. The ones with the passion and commitment will outlast the others. Same thing with the ball python hobby/industry. How many times do you see whole collections for sale? Frequently, right? It's up to us to get the word out to others interested in hearing about the amazing garter snakes. I gave a presentation to my local herpetological society on the 21st of this month (Sunday) titled a "introduction to garter snakes and a overview". The president of the society said in his 26 years with the organization that there was never a presentation on the garter snake! We really have a lot of work to do getting the word out about garters. We have to make appearances at these expos and these repticons with garters. We have to educate, promote, and reeducate. Just my 0.02 cents.

[Eddie]

Very well said Albert

[Albert Clark]

Very well said Albert

Thanks. Appreciate that.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I could go and seek out Thamnophis species that nobody keeps, breed them, have babies and i would probably have a hard time getting them into the hands of people who claim to be thamnophis enthusiasts. Thats one thing i never understood. So to the people who question other people im questioning you.

[joeysgreen]

Bushsnake, I don't think the draw to garter snakes is that they are rare, or hard to get; quite the opposite. Thus acquiring rare to the hobby Thamnophis species doesn't really target anything but the smallest niche of the group.

[Steveo]

I think the appeal of morphs and breeding go hand in hand. There's no need to breed something you can go pick up at your local park (regulations permitting, ofc). I could pick up a gravid T. e. vagrans this summer and not be able to give them all away. But most morphs are a rarity and rarity has value. You're not gonna get rich but if you can break even on your hobby by doing it, and you enjoy doing it, I understand that completely. If you buy a few pugets because you like them and can break even by selling a litter or two, maybe even make a few bucks for your trouble 2 or 3 years down the road, then that seems to be a viable idea.

It just so happens that some of the rare morphs/subspecies are really neat looking. It's not like BPs where every new morph is just a little different than the others. That adds to the value. The visual appeal is highest in some of the morphs that are hardest to get.

There's also the issue of thamnophis being a small community. Granted, I have been out of it for a few years (I came back here looking to see what happened to Scott Felzer), but now I have no idea where to go to get the morphs I like. Scott was a one-stop shop. He put a lot of snakes in circulation and that probably will have a negative impact on the gene pool down the road, but responsible breeders will work around that. Someone or multiple people will step up to fill that role. Having bad actors doesn't negate the good. You just have to do your homework.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Bushsnake, I don't think the draw to garter snakes is that they are rare, or hard to get; quite the opposite. Thus acquiring rare to the hobby Thamnophis species doesn't really target anything but the smallest niche of the group.

All i was saying is theres alot of cool thamnophis out there that nobody pays attention to. Ive been around for some time now and i see the same **** year after year. Does everything have to be a rare morph to have desirable...no. whether something is common or not is relative. If your into milks or kings or boas and pythons theres a wide variety of that stuff available. The garter hobby isnt like that and it should be. Thats the point i was making

[AntTheDestroyer]

I am wondering what species you would like to see be made available, Bushsnake?

Thanks for the input everyone a lot of great stuff here.

On a side note for some reason I was under the impression that at least some of Steve's stock was sold off with giving fellow breeders much notice. I thought I read a few breeders were concernced that some great projects were lost, but I could be mistaken.

Also hello Steveo from a fellow Denverite.