Discussing "Co-Allelic" recessives in T.Radix

[AntTheDestroyer]

This is true.

I need to get my hands on a DNA reader, amazon.com might have one.
Until then, all we have to judge is phenotypes and breeding results attempting to explain genotypes. That's the fun part though!

You are right and this is how the industry functions. The use of axanthic and anertheristic just seems more specific in the garter snake community, when in actuality if a snake is missing yellow where there should be yellow it is axanthic and the same for red and anerytherism. Attaching a phenotypic description to a genetic mutation is confusing because they may not be the same in two snakes lacking that pigment. I know BUSHSNAKE would disagree but I think there should be more specific names put on some of these lines to highlight their differences. I don't know that we need to dwell on the complex genetics of the whole things as that would be time consuming and expensive, but I just think there needs to be more clarity to what these terms actually mean.

[Taso]

I did some squares. I would like some feedback!
There are abbreviations for Axanthic: Ax, and Anerythristic: An.
This is only based on the black/blue morphs, no idea for the black/white yet. And I'm sure it doesn't include everything we know so far, but hopefully it makes sense.
Soon I'll add albino to the mix.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...=0&single=true

I don't claim to know everything. So, opinions are always welcome.

[BUSHSNAKE]

You are right and this is how the industry functions. The use of axanthic and anertheristic just seems more specific in the garter snake community, when in actuality if a snake is missing yellow where there should be yellow it is axanthic and the same for red and anerytherism. Attaching a phenotypic description to a genetic mutation is confusing because they may not be the same in two snakes lacking that pigment. I know BUSHSNAKE would disagree but I think there should be more specific names put on some of these lines to highlight their differences. I don't know that we need to dwell on the complex genetics of the whole things as that would be time consuming and expensive, but I just think there needs to be more clarity to what these terms actually mean.

I have a pretty good grasp on what im talking about and im sharing that with others. that's what we are here for

[BUSHSNAKE]

You are right and this is how the industry functions. The use of axanthic and anertheristic just seems more specific in the garter snake community, when in actuality if a snake is missing yellow where there should be yellow it is axanthic and the same for red and anerytherism. Attaching a phenotypic description to a genetic mutation is confusing because they may not be the same in two snakes lacking that pigment. I know BUSHSNAKE would disagree but I think there should be more specific names put on some of these lines to highlight their differences. I don't know that we need to dwell on the complex genetics of the whole things as that would be time consuming and expensive, but I just think there needs to be more clarity to what these terms actually mean.

you seem to think my passion is ignorance...ITS NOT

[AntTheDestroyer]

I have a pretty good grasp on what im talking about and im sharing that with others. that's what we are here for

you seem to think my passion is ignorance...ITS NOT

I didn't mean to imply any such thing. Based on conversations we've had previously I thought you wouldn't agree with me about naming the lines.

[Jeff B]

I will probably regret even getting involved in this but your initial nomenclature on your spreadsheet isn't correctly set up regardless of what theories you have of how the genes work, because if Normal is AA, then what is Aa? You say Normal het Aa....het for what? You would have to have an "aa" that is homozygous for the recessive trait that you are denoting with the "a".If you intended for this to be het axanthic then the homozygous axanthic would be "aa" not BB. Also capital letters typically describe the dominant trait and lowercase describe a recessive trait? Your "Axanthic BB" denotes the phenotype axanthic as a homozygous dominant genotype? Your punnet square skills need some work grasshopper.

	Normal AA	Norm Het Aa	Axanthic BB	Ax Het An Bb	Anery bb

[Taso]

I will probably regret even getting involved in this but ...

Lol, please don't regret it. I'm trying to grasp things, and all help is appreciated.

if Normal is AA, then what is Aa? You say Normal het Aa....het for what?

That is what I chose to describe a het for axanthic or anerythristic. Normal "AA" meaning NOT carying genes for the morphs. Normal het "Aa" meaning the precursor for the morphs is there. "A" is dominant over "B", "B" is dominant over "b", "b" is recessive to both. Also "aa" clears the way for "B" and "b" to be expressed.
I legitimately dont know how to express them, so I simply went in alphabetical order. I based the structure on what I saw from the link I posted earlier explaining human eye color.
I'm not contradicting anything you said, just trying to answer the question.

I hope that clears up what I had in mind.

Your punnet square skills need some work grasshopper.

Yes, of course, Master B!

[Jeff B]

I should say that I am not trying to be discouraging or negatively critical, but rather trying to be helpful and get you on the right track.

[Jeff B]

I found an example on human eye color that might explain how "Axanthic" and "Anery" work together. OF COURSE they're not the same, but the concept may be similar.
"In genetics lingo, we say that brown is dominant over blue and green. And that green is recessive to brown but dominant over blue. Blue is recessive to both."

That is a very simplified example of how human eye color phenotype is determined. It actually involves many loci and genes, and people don't just simply have either blue or brown eyes either, rather there is all kinds of variation. This would actually be a closer example to how erythristic works. Also some people are born with blue eyes and turn brown. I have seen a lot of variation in erythristic and to where and what color red or orange is displayed and patterned and it can change as they develop.
One thing that I have observed as has Scott is that there are sometimes two forms of axanthics in a litter. Most produced are the greener ones with the lime dorsal that you referred to. Fewer are produced that are the more blue and black type.

[Taso]

So, if the two morphs are not co-allelic, they could just be completely separate and coincidentally show up in litters together. That could be the result of the original breeder crossing them in the first generation instead of outcrossing to wild types. And if that's the case, all of my punnet squares are incorrect...

Right? lol