In Breeding

[EasternGirl]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3? Cee Cee and Seeley bred...and I think there is a good chance that Cee Cee is Seeley's mother. Of course, that wasn't exactly planned. So, are you saying that allowing parent/child or siblings to mate is not acceptable in the breeding community?

[Stefan-A]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3?

Generations.

[gregmonsta]

some inbreeding is required to bring out the various morphs... good idea not to go past f3....

Definitely, to prove out a morph it is an important tool when limited sources of the required genetics abound. Had my earlier attempts at my anery concinnus project worked out I would be in F3 territory by now. Luckily I have Richard's experiences to draw on now and I won't have to go beyond F2 to test my ideas.
Again, it's then down to the breeder to advertise and sell responsibly, as required.

Just another thought...
How many people realise that if a breeder has a pair that they bred last year, and again this year, a female from last year mating with a male from this year is genetically the same as mating siblings together? They don't have to be from the same litter.

Now an example of a different species...
I know that my Cuitzeos are an F1 and F2, and come from a breeder in Europe. I also know that every Cuitzeo in Europe will have come from a single source (albeit one that has multiple wild caught snakes and breeds to produce genetic diversity). If in 20 years time someone decides that they need to get new blood in, and looks to the US to bring in some new blood, there's a good chance that the snakes from the US would originate from the same European breeder because some of his snakes have found there way to the US.
I guess the point of this is, that over time the early records that would definitively show the bloodlines are likely to be lost, and it's in the fourth, fifth, sixth generation that the records would become most important. What we do today can and will impact on the hobby for decades.

Some great points there. You would hope that some fresh blood would still be brought in somewhere along the line, in reference to the snakes crossing the pond.
It's also worth considering that in the wild a certain degree of inbreeding will be quite common. We're talking cousins and extensions of such. Nature seems to want to allow some separation of siblings considering that males becoming fertile at a younger age. Somewhere down the line it will happen though, and not just in isolated populations.
Again, it's down to how you build your collection, to follow your model.

My parietalis group is unrelated despite 3 of my animals coming from the same, trusted breeder. The first male can probably be traced to WC and the others can probably also be traced further.
My radix group has the same ratio. Two Dutch breeders and completely different lines (can probably be traced further).
My concinnus are currently a pair of Belgian brothers (can be traced back to WC through 2 generations) and an unrelated German female (F1 of fresh WC). If I find another female, with the males being related, I would still consider all offspring as F1.
My infernalis can be traced back through point of sale to a bloodline in Berlin, I think (will have to read the scribbles again and double check, these may be F1). I can only potentially generate F1/2 here as it stands.
My marcianus are 'unrelated' and were deliberately bought from different sources by the previous owner.
My 'Florida blue' sirtalis group is two sisters and an unrelated male, again according to previous owner. Again, all offspring of these would be F1.
The others I do not plan to breed so I will omit these - Panama may come into it, but it's not planned for and she's WC.

[gregmonsta]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3? Cee Cee and Seeley bred...and I think there is a good chance that Cee Cee is Seeley's mother. Of course, that wasn't exactly planned. So, are you saying that allowing parent/child or siblings to mate is not acceptable in the breeding community?

Breeding offspring back to a parent is quite common when trying to prove out a specific trait. You would have to consider the offspring as F2 realistically.

What we are saying is that standard practice tolerates inbreeding to the 3rd, F3 generation.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Some brilliant clarification here, thankyou everybody.

Can I just ask though, I thought F1 was offspring from purely unrelated mating
, f2 offspring from siblings mating
f3 next generation mating with no new bloodlines.

Can you just confirm this or is f1 just first mating regardless?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

[paulh]

Some brilliant clarification here, thankyou everybody.

Can I just ask though, I thought F1 was offspring from purely unrelated mating
, f2 offspring from siblings mating
f3 next generation mating with no new bloodlines.

Can you just confirm this or is f1 just first mating regardless?

F1, F2, etc can be very tricky.

In genetics, the F1 generation is produced by mating two pure breeding lines that are different in at least one gene pair. If I got an albino from Harry and a normal garter from Alf and mated them, the heterozygous offspring would be F1s. The two parents could be totally unrelated or cousins. And they are F1s whether they are one generation or 100 generations out of the wild. F2s are produced from brother x sister F1 matings. F3s are produced from brother x sister F2 matings.

A lot of people apply F1, F2, etc to generations out of the wild. Two wild caught snakes are bred to produce F1s. Those wild caught snakes could be totally unrelated or brother/sister. Mating two F1s produces F2s. The F1s could be totally unrelated or brother/sister.

Best to ask the breeder how he uses F1, F2, etc. to minimize incorrect assumptions. I'd love to get a pedigree back to the locality data of the wild caught ancestors, but that is getting into the opium dream realm.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ALL my breeding pairs are unrelated(to the best of my knowledge) AND i can trace their lineage back to original origin

[gregmonsta]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

[Thamnophis]

I bought my 2.1 tetrataenia from three different breeders in the Netherlands. Result was that this trio produced around 85 healthy young of which the most are still doing well as far as I know. They were all from the same male.
One daughter I kept and placed her together with the other "old" male. She gave a first litter of 10 that all do well.
In this way I seem to have a good breeding line.
What will happen when I add one or two specimen from another line to the breeding group? In theory this should be an improvement. But since all European tetrataenia are related in one way or another, you will never know if it will be an improvement. No one will know this in front.
I have the idea that there are a number of breeding lines in Europe that do well and a number of other lines that produce poor quality juveniles. Most of the breeders with the last mentioned lines stop breeding tetrataenia.
In this way only the fittest will survive. Next to that, there is no choice. There are no specimen available that are not related and most probably there will never will be.
I now have some young that are the future breeders. I hope to exchange one or two specimen with other breeders and than wait and see if this "new line" produces healthy young or not.

Normally I like to "inbreed" as little as possible, but with tetrataenia this is not a realistic option. The only thing you can try to avoid is that primary related specimen (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister) are used to breed.
But on the other hand... maybe healthy, perfectly functioning animals that are primary related will produce better young than when you add other "related" specimen to your breeding group (nephew, niece, grandniece, etc...).
You will know for sure after a number of years.

Very important is, when you think one of the snakes is, to your opinion, not suited for breeding, you end its life or keep it yourself and do not breed with it.