Puget Sound Garters & polymorphism

[ConcinusMan]

I would normally be adding these pics to "concinnusman's garters" thread but most of the time that thread is dead ( 404 Not Found error) and the issue still isn't resolved. Sometimes it's there, but mostly it's not.

Rather than making another thread I'll just slip this picture in here:

Here's the mighty little wandering garter that swallowed an adult mouse. Found her in Chehalis (Lewis County). Makes me wonder why they don't range south to Portland. It's the same ecoprovince (Puget Lowlands) all the way south along I-5 to the Columbia River but these only seem to range south as far as Lewis County. Hmmm... I wonder why. They are just as frequently found as northwesterns and pugets.

Note 8 upper labials, not 7.

T. elegans vagrans:

[katach]

Just to show another variation on the Puget coloring. This is our largest female, Cotton.
Note the absence of markings on the lateral sides.

IMAG0964.jpgIMAG0963.jpgIMAG0961.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, Cotton was the first I've seen that didn't have distinct lateral stripes. Lookin' sharp!

[katach]

Thanks Richard. She just shed this morning, almost like she was saying, hey take my pic and put it in that thread.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, two of the big girls I have just shed too. The black is so deep and almost like satin. Combine that with the florescent greenish yellow quality of the bold stripes and its like "wow"

[katach]

Most definitely! I just love the green/blue color on her neck, especially after a shed.

[mb90078]

Yeah, but is it primary, secondary, or both? I know that the area where concinnus and pickeringi ranges overlap or blur (Lewis County) was completely under water for thousands of years up until about 10,000 yrs ago. This, and glaciation at Puget sound, could have isolated a previously connected and continuous population of t. sirtalis, allowing them to evolve separately for a while. When the waters (glacial runoff lakes) finally receeded, they were then rejoined creating intergrade zones are the result of secondary contact between populations that were previously geographically isolated. This secondary contact very well could have happened, (happening now) but geographic morph variation within each subspecies' range, and DNA sampling suggest that the two have been in contact all along, with only intermittent periods of isolation. I could be completely wrong though and only extensive DNA sampling and years of research can reveal whats really going on with these two. I do know I read somewhere that it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between the two subspecies (concinnus and pickeringi) by DNA because they are essentially identical on a genetic level and I have to tell you, based on my interaction with them, they are the same. Everything I've always loved about concinnus' is there in pickeringi too. The only thing different is their color and pattern, and even that is nearly the same in certain individuals.

Interesting analysis.

[jaleely]

I'm pretty proud of myself. The only distinguishing, really, thing i noticed about the differences between T. s. pickeringi and T. s. sirtalis were the 7 cs 8 upper labials. I wasn't going to say anything, since I'm so new, but since that is a distinguisher, I'm proud I noticed it! They are so genetically similar, but that is a difference enough I can see where the difference is. Strange that along with only a slight color variance, would be the thing that stands out for them. Must be very had to notice on the fly while herping!

There are *so* many sub-species.

As for the beauty pictured here, the T. elegans vagrans...I lived in Silver Lake WA for a year, worked in Kelso/Longview, and banked in Chehalis..lol....and I found there to be a significant climate change between Chehalis and Portland area. To me, it felt like passing a barrier on the I-5 in regard to weather. Perhaps the snakes are more sensitive to that kind of thing than we give them credit for. I *loved* WA weather, and was very attuned to the changes when I'd drive down the I-5 or up, or even more inland. I could see why she wouldn't want to go down past Lewis county!

On a second thought, I wonder if Mt St Helens and the Toutle river have anything to do with it.

[InsanePirateDragon]

Just to show another variation on the Puget coloring. This is our largest female, Cotton.
Note the absence of markings on the lateral sides.

IMAG0964.jpgIMAG0963.jpgIMAG0961.jpg

Wow, that girl is gorgeous.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm pretty proud of myself. The only distinguishing, really, thing i noticed about the differences between T. s. pickeringi and T. s. sirtalis were the 7 cs 8 upper labials. I wasn't going to say anything, since I'm so new, but since that is a distinguisher, I'm proud I noticed it!

There is no scale difference. T. s. pickeringi and T. s. concinnus both have 7 (rarely 8) upper labials because they are both T. sirtalis'.
T. elegans on the other hand (all subspecies, T. e. vagrans, (wandering) T. e. elegans (mt. garter) T. e. terrestris (coast garter) have 8 upper labials.

The scales are used to distinguish between species but doesn't help to distinguish between subspecies.

First latin name "thamnophis" is the genus. "sirtalis" is the species name. pugets and oregon red spotted (and eastern T. s. sirtalis) are the same species. The scales are the same. The only thing different is their range, morphology, and of course, their third name. The third name is the subspecies name. But make no mistake, if the first and second name is the same, they are the same species and the scales are exactly the same.