PUGET Update (Vet Visit & more ;))

[garterking]

Just an update:
I sent a very professional email to "bob" and let him know that I posted about him and his snakes. I took a couple days to think it thru before I sent it.
I also sent him a link here and told him others (no names) have either heard of him, bought from him, know someone who has bought from him, etc. I let him know that I posted what I knew and heard and that myself and others were not satisfied with him or his snakes. I told him that I was making it a mission of mine to find other boards that he advertises on and let them know as well, and that if he starts to keep better care of his snakes, and sends out HEALTHY ones that I would also let the boards know he changed his ways. I still have a bit of hope left.
I'll let you know when/if I hear anything back from him.

[Snaky]

That is a big statement, but it's a very noble one. New buyers will certainly be happy if you warn them about him.

[Cazador]

Hi all,
First, I'm glad your snakes are still doing well, Kitkat & Marian. That's great news! Kitkat, yours were ill for a while, weren't they? The range of the T.s. pickeringii and T. ordinoides overlaps in Washington, so unfortunately that one doesn't exclude either. Sometimes, you see one of these blue snakes with a very blunt, rounded head. It is clearly a T. ordinoides. Then you see some with thin, more pointed heads, which make you wonder if they might be T.s. pickeringii. However, all seem to have 17 dorsal scale rows, which is a defining characteristic of the ordinoides. Here's that link about how to do the counts (Key to California Gartersnakes). Just click on the blue link on that page that says "Scale Count at mid-Body" to see a picture showing how to do it. You'll also notice that T. ordinoides usually has 8,9 lower labials, but T. sirtalis normally has 10. The dorsal scale count and the head shape seem to be the most reliable, though. I'll check a Peterson's field guide for more info and send PMs with more details if they're helpful (since I'd be plagiarizing).
Rick

P.S. Given the variation in head shape, but consistent scale counts of 17, I sometimes wonder if we may be dealing with hybrids between the two species? Sometimes their heads look VERY different from one another.

[KITKAT]

I have not sexed my snakes yet, but they do appear to be male and female. The female is larger and heavier, if I am guessing their sex correctly.

What do you think about the head shape of my snakes? (See photo of the female, below)

Also... no... they were never sick. It was the T.s.concinnus that I got at a local herp show, that were sick. I did use frontline on the ordinoides, because they had been in the same room as the concinnus. By the way, they burrow alot. That is wood dust from the aspen shavings that you see in the photo (not mites).

[Cazador]

Hi Kitkat,
To me, the head on your snake appears more pointy and triangular. Contrast it to the picture, below, that looks more like a T. ordinoides. Yours also has a VERY thin blue, dorsal stripe. From your photo, it appears to be only 1/2 - 1 scale widths? Both species have thin dorsal stripes, but the books actually mention that Puget Sound garters (T.s. pickeringii) have thin dorsal stripes. I wouldn't be surprised if the snakes in your and my pictures were different, but similar, species. I've been reading up on these, but using the descriptions to distinguish between them is still a bit confusing. The dorsal row scale counts seem to be the most unique characteristic between the two species.



Here's another:

[KITKAT]

My snakes seem to have one scale row for the dorsal stripe. The side stripe is also quite thin, but I would have to check to see how many rows.

My snakes are also blue, however.

Do you think they might be a hybrid?

[garterking]

I just want to give a quick warning for all on here. "bob" is back on http://kingsnake.com/ advertising his cool blue garters. Read this entire thread and make sure you know what you're getting into with this guy.

I should tell you it's been a couple weeks now and still no response to my email. Just a fair warning to everyone, that's all.

[Tori]

There was a dealer at the last couple of reptile expos here that purchased 10 of them from Bob. I don't know how many had to be treated by a vet, but several did. He said that he had to ask so much for them to help pay for the vet visits. He was asking $150 each (and getting it). I'm thinking about buying one from him. The expos are once a month here. If they are all still healthy next expo I'll decide for sure then. It would be hard to do a scale count at an expo, so I should look for a very thin stripe and a pointed head? Anything else?

Tori

[Brian]

A couple of things about pudget sound garters (t.s.pickeringii) and northwestern garters (t.ordinoides).
The best way to differentiate them is by the head.
The eye size in proportion to head and bluntness of the head are the best characters to use.

sirtalis: large eyes and long head with defined neck. Much slimmer overall than ordinoides.
ordinoides: small eyes, blunt head, neck is not as well defined.
They are also very stocky looking snakes and don't get nearly as big as sirtalis generally.
They both usually have 7 upper labials.

The width of the stripes on ordinoides is useless in identifying them.
These snakes are one of the most highly variable in the Unitied states, perhaps only beeten by sonora semiannulata. These snakes can have thin stripes, thick stripes, two stripes, three stripes, one stripe or no stripe.
The stripes can range in color from white to yellow to orange to red to green to blue.
The background color can be, light brown, dark brown, green, black, spotted or not.
Jerimiah Easter had a poster on the net which has disapeared where he showed 15-20 different color varieties.
Alan St. Johns book, Reptiles of the northwest shows 6-7 variations.
Its not uncommon in Oregon to turn over a board and see three different
color variations. I have witnessed this myself.
Here are some pictures of some I found in one trip to the NW a few years ago.
Washington


Oregon




I have always thought it would be fun to breed the different color varieties of
ordinoides but many of the really cool forms are only found in Washington and it is illegal to collect snakes their period. When you consider that the blue phase of ordinoides and the blue pudget sound garters are only found in WA, it makes you wonder how legal the snakes are that "bob" is selling. I know people who
had inquired about getting permission to catch some garters in washington to breed and they were denied. They have a very strict no take policy on reptiles there, and the antics of people like "bob" won't help to ever get them changed.

Marian,
Sorry to hear about your snakes, but it sounds like they are doing much better.
I hope the little red spot guy you got from me is still doing well.

[mikm]

hello all ... I see head shots are all the rage so I added mine, lol I too suspect these may be intergrades ... The girls have been taking 3 large f/t pinks along with strips of salmon every 5 days or so, for the past few weeks. Their weights have increased drastically since their vet visit on 1/26/7 ... I weighed them all again on 2/10/7 ...

Big Girl _ 57grams >> 74 grams (med condition)
Girl #2 _ 42 grams >> 54 grams (mild condition _ had the worms)
Male _ 41 grams >> no change (fish eater only, shows no sign of illness)

Both girls have the extremely narrow dorsal stripe, barley covering one scale. The male however has a broader doral stripe consisting of at least 2 scales ... I distorted the background of these pics focusing on the subject and changed it to B&W to hopefully show the head shape better. Here are their head shots ...