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  1. #11
    Moderator adamanteus's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    I have released captive born neonates (Natrix natrix) into the wild before, so I understand your thoughts on this. I agree, it would be an invaluable experience and lesson for your daughters.
    There have been other members who have argued quite strongly against this kind of release... for fear of introducing pathogens into a wild population. A very good and valid argument. My feelings.... it's a nice thing to do.
    James.

  2. #12
    "PM Boots For Custom Title" Snake lover 3-25's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    i plan on finding a way to get a male so i can do just that... i do want to increase my pop... but 2 or3 young would be picked off very quickly and so i want to breed 2 or maybe even 3 females at one time just to release the young and hopefully increase my local pop.
    S h a n l e y
    1.3 eastern garters
    1 midland painted turtle
    1 bernese mountain dog
    1 half siamese cat

  3. #13
    Moderator adamanteus's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    Actually increasing the local population probably isn't going to happen... there is some reason why the population is low. That issue would need to be addressed first... but there's no denying the 'feel good factor'.
    James.

  4. #14
    Old and wise snake KITKAT's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    In Ohio, you have 30 days from intake of a WC snake, to release it, and during that 30 days, it must not have had ANY contact with another herp.

    Beyond that, you must be licensed, and can only keep 4 WC herps of any combination of species.

    And I never did find out whether last year's brood of 40 live T sirtalis were considered WC or CB, so I released them.

    Did this cause a population surge? No.

    Did it ensure the health of the gene pool? maybe.

    So if this did not cause a population surge, what did?

    My neighbor built a waterfall for her goldfish pond, and now there are more garters present around our houses than previously, with the same general population out back in the "prairie" as before.

    I think pesticide useage, access to water, and access to secure hiding places (in other words, habitat) are key to population changes.
    KitKat
    "Acts of kindness should never be random."

  5. #15
    Juvenile snake
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    I think if you catch a gravid garter, you should put it back! Mother nature NEEDS those babies!
    -Caleb

  6. #16
    "PM Boots For Custom Title" count dewclaw's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    Quote Originally Posted by el lobo View Post
    I think if you catch a gravid garter, you should put it back! Mother nature NEEDS those babies!
    But what if there is the risk of killing the gravid female with a lawnmower (by mistake of course) before the young are born?
    LeAnn
    "The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."
    "Jokes are for kids, but puns are for the grown."

  7. #17
    Forum Moderator infernalis's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    Very good point James, and my thoughts exactly. Nonetheless I did not want to enter your forum and start judging people, so I just throw what I have learned out there for you, and hope it helps.

    If anyone remembers the tale of our first dekay breeding encounter, I felt morally obligated to care for these babies, we did so and when they had fed all winter, grown to a sub adult size, released all but 1.

    the second time, it was in fact a gravid female snatched up off the ground, didn't really know it until one day neonates started popping out, again same practice, head start, then release.

    Third time and to avoid repeating, the current gravid gal, same deal.

    Now here is where you all may think I am a weirdo, if the weather causes the wetlands distress, and they start to dry out, we pump millions of gallons of water from a nearby stream to keep the wetlands wet.

    the slug / worm / fish and amphibian populations are all very important to us, so when we have spare time, we work to help out. One year I spent a lot on fish food, the creek had all but dried up, all the fish were in one small water hole, and would have mass died off from starvation.

    Bleeding heart Wayne ran off to the farm store and bought pond fish food, fed them every day until the rain replenished the water. (no wonder our nerodia sipideon population is so strong)

    I know first hand that this effort has been successful, we have encountered familiar animals long after release.

    These encounters have also PROVED without any doubt, we never really "tame" our snakes, we condition them to tolerate us. I once picked up a snake that was raised eating from my hand, he had only been in the wild for a couple months, he flattened right out, reared back and started striking.

    Could it be? my precious hand fed baby hates me for making him move out? No not really, once he was free of human interference, natural instincts returned, they HAD TO if this animal was going to survive.

    Adopting out babies to other forum members is kinda cool, in moderation.

    The cretins who scoop up wild snakes and then sell them in classifieds, that bothers me immensely. However I am guilty of buying a couple.

    I have picked up and admired many gravid gals this spring, all but one were placed exactly where I found them.

    The only reason that big plump eastern is chillin in an enclosure is that since she has such bright orange edges to her scales, I would like to see the babies.

    My plans for the litter? Most will go right back where they would have been if I left mom alone.

    as far as the idea of pumping up a population, please understand that there is a reason garters have such big litters, Birds, Milk Snakes, raccoons, and many other carnivores consider baby snakes a delicacy.

    So in nature, maybe 10 percent of the litter will become adults.

    The possibility of introducing pathogens is exactly why our neonates from the wild moms are only allowed to eat prey that we gather from exactly where the snake belongs, the only microbes ingested would be the same exact ones ingested out back.

    Animals that we keep however get vet care whenever needed, so I will feed items purchased at stores to them.

    I treasure the knowledge gleaned, and am confident that the neonates that cost me a chunk of cash this year will do better than if I had entered blindly into raising them without the education.

    Yes any snake passing away sucks, but if I had to see one choke on substrate to learn what not to do, I'd rather it not be a flame that cost over a hundred bucks to buy or it's Melanistic mate.

    My advice to anyone who will be releasing this year, chose your site carefully, look around is there ample foods available? is there an owl nest close by? Is there a clutch of milks near that will hatch soon and eat your babies? all sound considerations before just dumping babies on the ground.......


  8. #18
    Moderator adamanteus's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    Nice, considered post Wayne.. thank you.
    When I asked this question and started this thread, I wasn't being judgemental or 'pointing the finger' at anyone in particular. It was simply to open a discussion on the 'deliberate' collection of gravid females. I know there are sometimes special circumstances (potential lawnmower accidents etc). The question was "How do we feel about the deliberate collecting of gravid Garter Snakes, whether this be to boost our collection or to try to make some money"?
    I just feel that the gravid females you see, represent next year's (and the following year's) population, and should be left alone, whenever possible.
    James.

  9. #19
    The Leader of the Eastern Gang anji1971's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    I have taken gravid females from the wild. However, with the first one, I didn't know how to tell male from female or gravid from non. The kids found a snake, and I thought it would make a cool pet for us. Little did I know the addiction that was to come.
    When I brought Chili home, I knew there was a good chance she'd be gravid, just because of the time of year, but since I already had a female, and wanted a companion for her, I needed another female. Buying snakes is not in my budget and probably won't be for quite some time. So I caught one. If Deejay had been a male, then that's what I would have looked for and brought home. Simple as that.
    Now that she's had her babies, I plan on releasing most of them back into their natural habitat. I know not all will make it, but if even two or three do, then I've returned more than I've taken.
    I'm not interested in breeding snakes- ever. I just want some nice-looking specimens that I can get some enjoyment from, and hopefully provide a nice safe life for. Someday,when finances permit, I will buy other species, and expand my collection. I love the little creatures, and can't imagine life without any now.
    Anji

  10. #20
    Forum Moderator infernalis's Avatar
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    Re: Collecting Gravid Females.

    Quote Originally Posted by adamanteus View Post
    Nice, considered post Wayne.. thank you.
    When I asked this question and started this thread, I wasn't being judgemental or 'pointing the finger' at anyone in particular.
    James, never thought you were.

    I will be willing to bet, it was food for thought and some minds will be thinking!

    I can just tell by the collective personality of this group of people, that the welfare of these snakes is important. More so than making money from them. That's why I spend so much time here.

    On the very same day my babies arrived, I posted here and there(ahem)
    within moments folks here all had at least one friendly comment.

    That post still sit "there" and has not even gleaned one reply yet, not one.

    can I ask you something? Adam Ant fan?

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