Taxonomic discussion

[Stefan-A]

So what do you think of these?

They all look like definite fitchi to me, but you're the local.

This next one, however, is very interesting:

A muddled "Coast" with all the red flecking...

Are you positive that it's not something else? I know counting supralabials isn't a fool proof way of identifying T. elegans, since it can be 7 on one side and 8 on the other, but that one does have 7. I know this is going to sound stupid, but is there any chance at all that it could actually be an ordinoides? Nevermind, the scale rows seem to be 19, not 17.

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking snakes. They would be welcome here in Iowa anytime.

[Garter_Gertie]

Oh, Steve Have I missed you. Great brain candy! Don't stop!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

They all look like definite fitchi to me, but you're the local.

This next one, however, is very interesting:


Are you positive that it's not something else? I know counting supralabials isn't a fool proof way of identifying T. elegans, since it can be 7 on one side and 8 on the other, but that one does have 7. I know this is going to sound stupid, but is there any chance at all that it could actually be an ordinoides? Nevermind, the scale rows seem to be 19, not 17.

Not at all stupid! My first impression was ordinoides. The coastal elegans though often displays these colorful fusions that are very reminiscent of Northwesterns. It is currently believed that ordinoides, elegans, and atratus may all be sister taxons. Check out Californiaherps.com - Gary Nafis' site is a great quick resource for pics and info for western herps. The coastal elegans variations are shown. The Natives sightings on HumboldtHerps.com also shows many of our local morphs. I believe guide map ranges are out of date (even Peterson's). You are right regarding the fitchi-like appearance of the 1st 2 garters. This also has to do with range map interpretation. T. s. infernalis is confined to south of the Klamath River and fitchi is to the north. I have seen the effects of fitchi all the way to the Mad River (30+ mi. south), but then this could be a grand assumption, for the appearances may just be a result of ecotypic plasticity. I personally believe the whole subspecies concept is no longer an applicable taxonomical interpretation of what is really happening with some of these species. Nature abhors a vacuum, and it is always changing. It's we humans who always feel compelled to have everything in order. "Mother Nature" doesn't care. "She" is just doing her thing. I also suspect ordinoides' range to be much further south than what is printed even in the latest guides.

Steve

[Stefan-A]

Keep talking, Steve. This is the most interesting stuff I've seen on this forum in months.

[prattypus]

Geez. I don't understand 80% of what's been said here, but here I am enthralled and nodding like I get it. This is great!

[GartersRock]

Keep talking, Steve. This is the most interesting stuff I've seen on this forum in months.

Agreed! Keep talking! I love it!!

[ssssnakeluvr]

[quote=Steven@HumboldtHerps;85937]

I've gone on about this topic before, but I'd like to post a few example photos here to show my frustration with the gestalt of some of these snakes. First, Stefan-A, I understand T. e. terrestris has been absorbed by T. e. elegans (Great! Now the elegans clade has a whole plethora of morphs to add to its list!), but could you find me a link about this, as I would love to read it. So... "Mountain Garters" here on the coast and in our coastal ranges come in all kinds of patterns and colors, but most all the coastals have olive-green, olive-brown, light olive-tan, or near black heads.


I thought I read that terrestris was now vagrans....let me know what you find out....I am trying to look up and find out what I can also.....





So what do you think of these?







Definitely think this is fitchi....I have a male fitchi from Utah with the orange flecking on the belly....plus, being all black with the red...haven't seen a fitchi with any other background colors.... VERY nice female too!!!!! I love fitchi!!!!





may be also a fitchi.....good pic, but can't quite tell the colors well enough....







well....ooops....by looking at the neck shot.....I would say formerly terrestris.....has more greenish background colors......

[ssssnakeluvr]

A muddled "Coast" with all the red flecking...

I would say this is a coast garter for sure......

[anji1971]

Geez. I don't understand 80% of what's been said here, but here I am enthralled and nodding like I get it. This is great!

You took the words right out of my mouth!
It is quite interesting stuff, isn't it? I guess if I lived in an area with so much variety in species, I'd probably be more knowledgeable of the subject. Steve, you're a lucky guy to live where you do!