de-worming ???

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'd say it looks like tapeworms. If it is segmented then it's definitely tapes. It looks like some feces there (the dried powder looking stuff). If that is, then its good they came out the back end...just good that they came out. Best thing to do is take some fresh feces to a vet and have a fecal float done for eggs (if they aren't tapes). Tapes pass eggs in little segments that look kinda like rice, so if you see something like that, get them to the vet to be id'd. Tapeworms do have to go thru in intermediate host....i.e. fleas...it's possible ot get from eating a mouse with fleas.

[GarterGuy]

Hi....this is Roy. LOL Hi have to agree with everyone else here, your snakes have tape worms. As far as where they came from.....there are LOTS of different tape worms and actually they can come from other prey species, like fish and amphibians....they're not only found in warm blooded prey. As far as the treatment, I'd probably be working with a vet if you're not real comfortable dosing the animals or getting the meds. Looking through "Understanding Reptile Parasites : A Basic Manual for Herpetoculturists & Veternarians", they also recomend using Droncit (just a commercial name for praziquantel) at a dosage of 5mg/Kg orally or injected. They also recomend to treat the animals again after two weeks, to make sure you get them all. Don't be surprised if after you treat them that you see lots of worms coming out......that'll happen as they're being killed. I would definitely treat all the "Pugets" that you have....more than likely, if one has it the others may as well. As far as the gaping and mouth wiping....this sounds a lot like what two of mine did. I wasn't able to totally diagnose what was causing it, but they eventually died from some unknown ailment. I almost wonder if it's not some other bacterial infection of some type or another. I would also seperate them all if you can. It'd be best for telling how they are doing and to keep the ones that are doing well, from picking up anything from the possibly sick ones. Well I wish you the best with your snakes and as Rick (aka: Cazador) had said, I'd definitely contact "Bob". I don't know if it'll really help.....I've heard nothing since contacting him about loosing my three snakes.

Good luck.......Roy

[mikm]

abcat1993 _sorry to have offended you.

don _fantastic, thank you ! three fecal floats will be "on order" )

roy _ I ordered that book from Amazon yesterday I am hoping that there is not a bacterial infection as that would be much more difficult than treating for worms. IMO of all of the possibilities tapeworms sure look bad but I feel it's a work-able problem. I have seperated them as I need to do some snake poop snoopin', lol ... thanks for supplying the dosage of praziquantel ... I will collect and submit fecal samples for floats to be done at the vets after final follow up de-worming treatment ...

rick _I am going to contact *bob* ... thanks for making the human contamination point ... I did not touch any of this with my bare hands and the container she was in is still soaking in Nolvasan ! I am going to take this one step at a time and not assume the worst. All of the Pugets eat well, shed clean and consistently and move about as normal, (with the exception of that 5 minute period I observed that started this thread.) No external parasites observed and I have re-checked many times. In fact the *worm* snake looks totally fine now, mouth closed, not lethargic at all, actually she's been stalking her water container looking for fish. This particular sub-species is very alert and watches what is going on outside of their immediate environment. My plan of action is as follows ...

_ Treat all for tapeworms.
_ After the treament period, I will have fecal floats done for each snake.

I will have the fecal floats done by vet staff and will treat them at home. I have a personal friend who is an MD and she and her sons have some large boas and a monitor or two ... I also have access to a U of PENN vet that's not a reptile vet in her practice but we're friends and she does help me out as well. In my area the *exotic* vets are established avian vets though they see all/any *exotics* their knowledge pertaining to a garter appears to be limited and they have said so.

thanks to all who expressed their concerns and shared their knowledge !
marian

[Cazador]

Hi Marian,
The phone service in my neighborhood went out yesterday and still isn't fixed, but it looks like you got some good advice. Thanks, Roy, for supplying the praziquantel (Droncit) dose. That was really worrying me last night.

The part that concerned me about your snakes mouth was the exudate and that slight gap between the "lips." I heard what you said about them looking normal today, but it never hurts to keep a good eye on them. That thick exudate is a warning sign! Here's what to look for... discoloration, progressively thickening exudate, continued swelling of the gums, and later on an inability to grasp and swallow prey. One of my blue snakes from "Bob" developed mouth rot, and the advanced stages can only be treated by a vet who administers subcutaneous medication. Quarantine is a good idea, "just in case" because reptiles don't normally show signs of a problem until it is fairly significant.
Rick

P.S. My internet access will be limited until the phone company can repair whatever the problem is.

[mikm]

hey rick ... I did a little more research on mouth rot and I will be checking all of them at length for- ... well "-ever" probably, lol ... I do not routinely handle my snakes so these are now dreading seeing me approach their enclosure ! Usually when any of either brood is hungry they *follow* me around the house

all is well here ... much thanks for your help & concerns !
marian

[Cazador]

It's really a shame that the primary supply of these blue ordinoides are in such poor shape. I think that the stress of shipment and acclimating to their new surroundings is impairing their immune system and allowing the parasites to overwhelm them. They generally appear fine at first, but soon start to show signs of trouble. I've found mine to be very personable and willing to be held, though.

[KITKAT]

Yup those are tapeworms.. gross little buggers.

Question though. I do work at a vet and tapeworms (per my information) are normally contracted due to fleas(injesting) or eating rodents (fleas on the rodents). The fleas carry the tapeworm egg ( as far as I know) on their body. Exactly how would a snake come in contact with tapeworms.
Would they be in an enviornment that has fleas and they accidently injested one or ??
I'm just curious.

Brittany

I don't know the answer to Brittany's question, but this discussion does make me wonder if snake mites can carry tapeworms...

[GarterGuy]

I don't know the answer to Brittany's question, but this discussion does make me wonder if snake mites can carry tapeworms...

Hmmmmm.....you know I've never heard that before, but since I know fleas can carry tapeworms to dogs and cats (as has been stated above), it makes me wonder? I've only ever heard of tapeworms being introduced to snakes through infected prey????

[mikm]

rick _ do you still have any Pugets ??? I have been researching *mouth rot* for days now to get a better understanding of it and the implications, just in case. After conferring with some friends I have an appointment for tomorrow morning with a recommended vet that will work with me. I am taking all three Pugets and hopefully some fecal samples. I have a treatment plan in my head and hopefully she agrees or has other ideas !
I intend to post the results of my visit ...

enjoy your day !
marian

[Cazador]

Hi Marian,
I still have two of the blue adults (1.1). They're brumating right now and in good shape, but it wasn't easy getting them to that point. I had to quarantine them each individually and treat them for roundworms and amoeba/protozoa. I completed treatment for the roundworms before I began treatment for the amoeba and protists, so it took a long time. I don't know if this was necessary, though. If you get the chance, would you mind asking your vet if flagyl and metronidazole (Panacur) can be given simultaneously? It would have sure sped things up.

Also, if you count the dorsal scales of your snakes, you'll probably find 17, like mine. This is a key feature that distinguishes T. ordinoides from T.s. pickeringii. T. ordinoides have 17 dorsal scale rows, and T. sirtalis spp. have 19. It can be easier to do this count from pictures if your snake starts to get a little squirmy. I'm eager to hear what you learn from your scale count and from the vet. Best regards,

Rick