Urgent Force Feeding Help

[Rushthezeppelin]

Garters don't need UVB, so that's not your problem.

Are you talking about those little round thermometers that are like dials? Those are like, up to ten degrees off on a good day (you may be talking about something else, but that's just what my mind went to)

They are. I have two of em in one viv that are more or less for show, one is like 4 degrees off the other and one is about a degree off of actual. I use my flir camera for getting temp readings. Another flaw with those is you can't have it sitting in the middle of your basking spot. At least with the digital ones with the probe on a wire you can have it setup in the basking area much more easily. Even then I'd still trust a temp gun over anything and just find out how much a digital is off by and use that for daily checks but still check weekly with a temp gun.

[Simland]

I'd heard the jury was still out on the UVB thing. Maybe I'll try not using a UVB bulb with the next one, while I keep one on the cage of my current (still alive) snake. I want to test the temperatures in the terrarium of the one that died, though, before I get another one.

I think we're talking about the same gauges. The ones that you have to look at directly from the front to get the right reading and that have the thermometer placed in a very illogical spot to take the reading in the first place...

I'm hesitating between an actual temperature "gun" like the Etekcity (ETC 8750) Temperature Gun (Etekcity Lasergrip 800 Non-contact Digital Laser IR Infrared Thermometer Temperature Gun, Yellow/Black) and this other kind of laser gauge: Equus Laser Temperature Gauge (Equus Laser Temperature Gauge | Canadian Tire). Do you guys have any advice?

The Equus one seems much smaller, which would be handy for my terrariums with the smaller doors. However, I tend to be wary of technological devices that are smaller yet are also cheaper....but is the difference worth the trouble that would be cause by the larger "gun"? If I have to remove the entire lid, I might en up not taking the temperature as often...

[joeysgreen]

On UVB lighting; while not proven beneficial in garter snakes, if you are already offering it, I would continue. Our goal in captivity is to recreate the natural habitat as best as we can, sans predators and disease. Corn snakes have been shown to have higher blood vitamin D levels with access to UVB lighting, while ball pythons have been shown to not have increased vitamin D levels. Both species do well and breed readily in captivity without additional lighting, but I think this is information that should have us asking if we are doing the best that we can for our animals. With the diurnal nature of garter snakes, I would suspect that there is some value to offering UVB lighting.

As per temperature guns, when deciding upon various models, you must have an idea about how they work. If you look at the labels, they should have a ratio on them, like 1.4, or 1.200 etc. It's been a while since I've looked into it, but this ratio describes the discrepancy in the reading compared to the distance of the laser (related to the dispersion of said laser). Thus, for most temperature guns to be accurate, you pretty much have to place it within a few inches of the surface. If you are reading it without opening the cage up, you're probably not getting accurate or consistent results.
Another point to mention on temperature guns is that they read surface temperature, not air temperature. Without understanding this difference, you may not have the information you need to correctly troubleshoot a husbandry problem. I like to have both types of thermometers at my disposal.

Ian

[Simland]

Yeah, the ratios I've seen are all 12:1 and 8:1, so even at 12:1, it'd have to be less than 12 inches away to get the reading for a spot less than one inch in diameter.

I'm still wondering at the overall quality of the cheaper and smaller Equus one, though. I'll start with a visit at my local Canadian Tire, to at least have a look.

I'd keep the cheap Exo Terra gauges, but a laser gauge would give me a better idea of the temperature in spots where it's hard to measure....as well as an idea of the accuracy of the Exo Terra gauges (air temperature 30C while the basking rock is 20C, I don't think so!)

[Rushthezeppelin]

On UVB lighting; while not proven beneficial in garter snakes, if you are already offering it, I would continue. Our goal in captivity is to recreate the natural habitat as best as we can, sans predators and disease. Corn snakes have been shown to have higher blood vitamin D levels with access to UVB lighting, while ball pythons have been shown to not have increased vitamin D levels. Both species do well and breed readily in captivity without additional lighting, but I think this is information that should have us asking if we are doing the best that we can for our animals. With the diurnal nature of garter snakes, I would suspect that there is some value to offering UVB lighting.

As per temperature guns, when deciding upon various models, you must have an idea about how they work. If you look at the labels, they should have a ratio on them, like 1.4, or 1.200 etc. It's been a while since I've looked into it, but this ratio describes the discrepancy in the reading compared to the distance of the laser (related to the dispersion of said laser). Thus, for most temperature guns to be accurate, you pretty much have to place it within a few inches of the surface. If you are reading it without opening the cage up, you're probably not getting accurate or consistent results.
Another point to mention on temperature guns is that they read surface temperature, not air temperature. Without understanding this difference, you may not have the information you need to correctly troubleshoot a husbandry problem. I like to have both types of thermometers at my disposal.

Ian

You just hit upon something I've wondered about for a while. What is the important temp to consider when setting up a basking spot? Is it surface temp, air temp, a combo of both? I kinda think it's a combo of both, like say if your surface temp is low then the garter could bask in a warmer then 90 area but probably best to try and have both balanced. It would make sense considering many parts of garters ranges get well over the upper safe limit of 90*, granted temps are probably lower in the shady riparian areas many garters frequent. Am I on the right track here? Only reason it even came up was because I was trying to create a basking spot with a white limestone rock and it was a bugger to get heated up while I know the air temp above it was way higher. I carefully monitored one of my snakes on it with my flir camera (that can do pinpoint temps) and she left the basking spot as soon as she hit 75. Only time I messed with it, so obviously anecdotal at best.

[Simland]

My guess is that it's both. The best situation is probably when they're both in the proper range, because your snake's body will "interact" with both. Cool air will cool the snake and so will a cool spot. In most cases, when it's probably fairly similar after a while with the heat lamp on.

Short of taking our snakes' temperature, I don't think we can get an absolutely accurate picture of the temperatures affecting them. We'd have to look at all three of the following factors:
-Surface temperature
-Air temperature
-Direct heating by the electromagnetic radiation of the lamp (if you're using a lamp)

If I remember correctly objects will draw/give off more heat than air at the same temperature because they are denser. But, I may be wrong. And it would also depend on the material.

I think if a heat gun says your basking spot is within the proper range and your air temp gauge (trustworthy or not) is in (or close to) the proper range, you're probably ok and you can use the heat gun to see if problematic spots are in the proper range.

I think this is what I'll do: keep the gauges I have for the air temp in the basking areas, use a heat gun to check the surface temperature of my basking areas and cool sides, keep track of behavior, and buy a digital thermometer (or anything else better than the cheap gauges I have) if I ever think the air temp somewhere might be problematic.

[Simland]

As you guessed, in nature, even when it's well above 90, they can find cool spots (e.g. burrows, shade, moist areas, etc.) even take a bath in pretty cool water. Micro habitats can have significantly lower temperatures than the surrounding habitat. Some desert living cicadas are actually active in full midday heat (when predators aren't) but they make sure to be in tiny micro habitat where the temperature is tolerable.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Short of taking our snakes' temperature, I don't think we can get an absolutely accurate picture of the temperatures affecting them. We'd have to look at all three of the following factors:

Actually my flir camera gives me a very accurate picture of how temps are affecting them I almost want to experiment with how this all interacts. What do you guys think, would it be safe to do experimentation with this as long as I'm constantly observing snake temps to make sure the one of them doesn't get boneheaded and sit in it too long?

Also I left that heat lamp on the test spot all day....the rock is acting as a heatsink and just spreading the heat it receives and balancing back out close to ambients.

[d_virginiana]

If you're home all day and can constantly check on them I think that would be safe. The main things to keep it safe I think would be to make sure nothing gets into a dangerous range, even if the snake isn't sitting there at the moment and to make sure the heating sources are as 'natural' as possible-- so heat coming from above, not a heat pad from below or anything like that.

What's a flir camera? I feel like I should know what that means, but I don't.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Thermal imaging camera. It picks up far IR (aka radiant heat) so I can actually watch my snake warm up. I would be doing this experiment in a separate enclosure and only under supervision. Wonder what I need to do to make this a true double blind study though.

Edit: going to stop hijacking and make a new thread...