Its oh so quiet Shh Shh

[ConcinusMan]

Unfortunately the act came too late for many species and still does too little good. Only a small fraction of the endangered species in North America are even on the list or protected at all because of all the bureaucratic red tape and years it takes to get them on the list. Furthermore, many species are going extinct due to climate change. The current mass extinction began with the ending of the last ice age. The planet has continued to warm and there's really not much we can do about it. Mass extinction is inevitable and is a runaway train we didn't even start and is pretty much beyond our control. Although we try, in the end it will have very little effect if the planet continues to warm and co2 levels keep rising. It's not all bad though it's just the end of an epoch but a new one will take it's place just like it's done many times before. The mass extinction that cleared the way for new forms/species that led to out existence killed roughly 75% of life on earth. It's no biggie. it's bounced back before from 98% being killed. The endangered species act is just another one of man's attempts to govern himself and nature which will fail because the only true laws and laws that really matter are the laws of nature. Those have absolute rule when all is said and done. In that regard the writers of the Bible got it right. money will fail, man's attempt to govern himself with his laws will fail. I think they understood back then that the rule of natural law is only true authority we must answer to.

But the Devil put dinosaur remains here to fool us.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm not sure where you are getting this info.(post your sources) but the latest 5 year study done clearly shows the numbers are in a decline even with stable habitats. Here is a link to the most up-to-date and complete study done on T. s. tetrataenia (San Francisco garter snake) Check out the last couple pages for some awesome population range maps.

I'll have to take your word for it. I can't get the PDF to load. First time it only loaded the first two pages and browser stopped responding. Second time it got to page 12 after taking a long time then just quit, the rest is blank.

"Endangered" does mean the possibility of extinction.

That's a pretty broad definition. Fact remains that a species can be stable or even increasing and still be listed especially if the only suitable habitat in their small range is disappearing or degrading which is stated as their #1 threat and reason for listing. Also, "it estimated that there are perhaps twice as many as surveys indicate because of the elusive nature of this reptile and the fact that much of the remaining suitable habitat is located on private property that has not been surveyed for the presence of the snake." And... " the full extent of the snakes' habitat has not been fully documented, and many snakes may utilize creeks and other waterways that are currently unexplored" Even if the habitats that are left were crammed with as many snakes as it can support, and populations were stuck at maximum they would still be listed as endangered just for the simple fact that their range is very small and all that habitat is not protected and under threat of being destroyed. My point is the criteria for listing them does not have to include falling numbers. Furthermore there could be 800 million of them in captivity and they would still be listed because only wild populations count.

[Stefan-A]

The current mass extinction began with the ending of the last ice age.

At least two separate events, with separate causes.

The planet has continued to warm and there's really not much we can do about it.

That's just false.

Mass extinction is inevitable and is a runaway train we didn't even start and is pretty much beyond our control.

But we did start the one in question and it's not beyond our control. Lack of will is not quite the same as lack of ability.

It's not all bad though it's just the end of an epoch but a new one will take it's place just like it's done many times before.

It is bad and it was bad every time it happened in the past.

The mass extinction that cleared the way

There was no way to clear. There was no plan for new species to emerge, that's just a consequence of changing conditions.

It's no biggie.

No, it's a biggie. It was a biggie every damn time it happened in the past.

it's bounced back before from 98% being killed.

What has bounced back? And don't ignore the cost.

The endangered species act is just another one of man's attempts to govern himself and nature which will fail because the only true laws and laws that really matter are the laws of nature. Those have absolute rule when all is said and done. In that regard the writers of the Bible got it right. money will fail, man's attempt to govern himself with his laws will fail. I think they understood back then that the rule of natural law is only true authority we must answer to.

But the Devil put dinosaur remains here to fool us.

How high are you right now?

[guidofatherof5]

Your a computer guy, poor excuse.

We can suppose all we want about them but the fact remains they are listed as "endangered"

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah well some sources/severs are better than others when it comes to downloading PDF's. I assure you the problem is not something I can control. My computer could request the data all day long but if they don't send it in a timely and efficient manner and give me some bandwidth or of there's a data bottleneck between their servers and me...

You wouldn't necessarily have that problem due to your way different location. I could download PDF's from Seattle or Oregon .edu servers lighting fast but for you it could take a while or you might have a little trouble/lag.

To clarify, my browser didn't actually freeze up. It was just so busy trying to load it that it couldn't do much else simultaneously. I closed all other tabs, tried to reload and left it overnight. Results weren't much better and was still trying to load it this morning. Still didn't get to read it. Maybe someone else could download it and send me the file by email or whatever?

EDIT: Nevermind. Problem solved and it was on my end when I investigated. Took about 30 seconds to fix. Yes, I is a pooter guy. That will $39.95 please. Wait... it's my computer.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh **** can we move this (except for the first post) I thought about it after i posted the reply that this might not have been a good idea to put the reply here. if you will please move it I will post a response and try to give a different perspective on the matter without sticking my foot in my mouth like I usually do.

Oh and incidentally I was not high and hadn't been in at least 4 hours If I had been, I probably would have just grabbed a bag of cheeto's moved to living room to watch a movie followed by a nap and said screw it instead of posting a reply.

[ConcinusMan]

At least two separate events, with separate causes.

You sound pretty confident about it being two different causes when not many can even agree what the causes are. You even expressed doubt about the current warming cause before so how can you say it was 2 different causes? So I guess it's my imagination that the ice age ended, all the ice melted, save the caps and also my imagination that the caps themselves are melting too. Warming is the cause. I don't much care about what caused the warming and I don't have much confidence that anyone really knows. The fact is it warmed up causing the extinction of many species and it's still warming and causing extinctions.

That's just false.

Sure it is. The ice is still melting but you're telling me it's my imagination and that it's not warming? That doesn't compute. A pause or even a swing back to somewhat cold for a few thousand years before continuing does not constitute an end to the warming which started long before we had the ability to affect it if we indeed affect it at all.

But we did start the one in question and it's not beyond our control.

Bull ****. We only helped to accelerate what was already happening. If the warming continues so will the extinctions. Even if doesn't warm anymore they will continue still because of the warming that has already happened. Explain to me how it is you think we can stop that. Even if we did start it can we really stop it now? One can only speculate.

It is bad and it was bad every time it happened in the past.

I stand corrected. It was neither good nor bad. It just was. "good" and "bad" are purely a matter of perspective. "Good and bad is always good and bad for someone in particular. In that sense they are relative"

There was no way to clear. There was no plan for new species to emerge, that's just a consequence of changing conditions.

That was exactly my point. I'm just not very good at written communication. Thanks for putting it better than I did. Conditions are changing again. New species will emerge again.

No, it's a biggie. It was a biggie every damn time it happened in the past.

It's only a biggie if you happen to be one of the species that cannot adapt and end up extinct. What I mean is that it's no biggie in the bigger picture and context of geologic time. It's not like it's going to end life on earth. It will just change life on earth.

What has bounced back? And don't ignore the cost.

Don't be naive. What was left surviving after snowball earth? Not much. How does that compare to life found to be flourishing during later epochs? cost? what does that even mean?



My entire point from the beginning was, how much effect do you really think a few laws are going to have in determining the course of extinction and emergence of new species later. In the long run, none. They all go extinct eventually including ourselves.

[jwolfe152]

i don't think it will matter what laws are made until EVERYONE follows them, and thats not going to happen until there is someone to monitor everything people do and even after that i have my doubts. i may be wrong here but its not just humans and pollution when things die and decay/rot they release carbon into the atmosphere and at some point that would have caused the planet to heat up too, right? also how many people think that some of this warming is a small part of a cycle that has been going on for a long time. im not saying that we as people have not accelerated it, but we are not the only reason for it. thats just my 2¢

[RicMartin]

In California until the springs that crisscross our garter habitat are cleaned of their current industrial pollution, our garter populations can't thrive.
The S.F. Garter could survive a bit longer in captivity because she's so beautiful and so popular in Europe, but after the wild population goes, the genetics will eventually deteriorate in the captive population.

Barely regulated and unsustainable urban sprawl in CA causes deadly problems to ourselves; it's just as bad an idea for the garter communities that try to survive around us. Developers' money and golf courses count for more here than any common sense or animal life; T. s. tetrataenia are killed by golf lawn mowers around here.

Oil will only go away when its fraud-inflated price kills its captive-customer demand. Looks like this may finally happen in our generation, regardless wether climate change keeps on happening or any miracle stops it. Good riddance.

Maybe our sons will be smarter (I know they are) and they will care more for our environment. In the mean time this page made me hope and smile:

Prominent scientists sign declaration that animals have conscious awareness, just like us

[jwolfe152]

Then you're going to hear people say "they are snakes they don't think", and i would say "you are wrong
". But they do think to an extent, they don't want to die, thats why they have defenses like musk and striking. They LEARNED these defenses regardless how long ago it was. but they don't sit around contemplating their role in nature or what they want to do tomorrow, they don't know things like love, they know mating, they have feelings as in pain or anxiety/stress. Now im not a PETA supporter, some of their views are just messed up, but i bet that animals know they are alive and don't want to be eaten or killed. or have their habitat destroyed