5 gal. tank?

[Millinex]

I've been out for a bit, sadly I have a real life that takes up way too much time sometimes. I've spent a lot of time looking for places to live, caring for some new arrivals, getting cages set up/planning new ones and working on breeding Varanus indicus (which I believe hasn't been done or documented?) Anyway I'll go ahead and respond to a few posts real quick. If people have further questions feel free to post them and I'll respond again probably later tonight.

Ummmm...so you admit that keeping reptiles in small cheap containers is EASIER for YOU and then you go on to accuse those that choose larger naturalistic environments as doing "all for themself and not the animal".

It is easier for me, this is extremely true. However, I'm saying the well decorated tank is done because the owner wants a pretty tank. I have never once argued I keep snakes in tubs because it's convenience, and what I find better suited for the animals. Either way it comes down to keeper preference, my problem is the idea that mine aren't as healthy, or its "cruel" to keep them in this method whereas the high and mighty fancy enclosure people are the only ones doing it correct. Big difference. I've never ONCE bashed the idea of keeping them in a large enclosure, if that's what you want to do GOOD FOR YOU, however, it doesn't make my method cruel or wrong, or any worse for the snake.

Hmmmm...seems like a bit of a contradiction eh? Also "eating, being somewhat active, and reproducing" are not proof of much. Humans can and do survive in small prison cells for decades, an alien could peer down and say "now see, he eats everyday and breeds if given the chance therefore he must be content in that environment".

Your comparing an animal that runs on instinct such as a snake, who has natural predators, to the most complex species on the planet. There is a lot different between a thinking being such as a human, and a non thinking being such a snake. I would never advice keeping gorillas, elephants, dolphins, monitors, dogs, etc in small cages due to the fact they actually have thinking and problem solving abilities, snakes, do not. Huge difference.

Fact is in nature Garters are fairly busy little guys, whether for food or heat or whatever. In a captive environment they are still hard wired to want some activity, and their nature does not change simply because they don't need to hunt for food constantly.

Which is why all my garters in tubs are not "super active and hard wired to be active". Garters go out to move for a reason, if there is no reason, the snake will not move. Period.

Humans have very LITTLE understanding of how most other species interpret their world. To think we understand them and their perception is quite ignorant and arrogant on our part. Keep in mind a few decades ago doctors "knew" that newborn human infants could NOT feel pain, they would perform major surgery on those infants and they were certain the cries and thrashing were involuntary responses that had NOTHING to do with actually suffering because the infants were physically incapable of experiencing real pain.

Again, different ballgame, that's pure stupidity on there behalf in thinking that a higher organism with an intelligent brain, ability to learn and grow and understand problem solving could not feel pain. Then again, that has little to do with the brain in general in this sense, and more to due with the central nervous system. Show me a trained snake, with some cognitive intelligence, and I'll openly declare I was wrong. Until a snake is able to be trained in some sort of manner to solve a multi step problem (the ability to think ahead to an end result), I still maintain these animals are nothing more than instinct.

We have NO real understanding regarding the psychology of most animals! Even the psychology of canines is hotly debated. How can anyone even pretend to understand their psychology when you yourself say they can't tell you what they are thinking?

No, however, we perceive animals as intelligence based upon the ability to think ahead and figure out an end result, multi step problems, things of this nature. Again, dogs have been PROVEN on multiple levels to understand multi step problems, be able to solve a problem, and work as a team. Anyone who thinks a solitary snake has the brainpower anywhere near a social mammal probably failed simple biology classes in middle school.

At least we agree on that subject.
I find the activity levels of Garter Snakes amusing to me.
Hiding this behind an opaque wall would defeat the entire purpose of having it. Beauty is to be admired, not hidden.

I do appreciate the personal stab at me due to the fact I view housing of captive snakes a little different, goes to show you're extremely mature. Clearly the idea of me taking a day off of responding and dedicating 20 minutes to typing out my reasons for viewing, in order to take care of my myriad of animals and personal problems, is a valid excuse for your behavior. The last thing on my mind when I have animals to build homes for, and work to do, is getting online to argue with YOU, because in the grand scheme of things, I literally do not think about this subject 99% of my day.

Again, if you find it amusing, keep them in a large enclosure, I have no problem with this. Just don't tell me my tub is cruel, and such a horrible environment, because the snake DOES NOT CARE. If you want to admire the beauty of the snake, go ahead, I'm not stopping you, I'm simply saying I keep them for other reasons, and being able to watch them, is not what I care about.

I think you're a little out-voted Milinex. Garters are VERY active and should have room to explore.

FYI, guys, I'm probably not going keep anything in the 5gal other than maybe a Pacman frog. The next things I'm getting is another garter snake, and a water snake hopefully, both are going in 15-29 gal tanks. Thanks for your help on what can live in one though, I may use it, I may not.

And yeah, Steve list 'em all!!

Hey Wayne, you mind telling me what bedding you're using in that picture? I'd like to find something like that but they all have sand in them... and from what I've heard that's bad for garters.

Again, I could care less if an internet forum disagrees with my methods of keeping (the same method used by thousands of keepers with very little ill effects), I'm not out to prove mine is better, I'm defending the point that my tub system is not cruel, and does not harm the animal, and again, "exploring" is a thinking term, garter snakes do not think, no snake does.

As for sand, not all sand is bad, I've found plenty of them in the wild using sandy areas, as long as there are other places to be, other than on the rough sand, the snake will be fine. Impaction is generally caused by keeper inability, not the substrate.

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

It's an instinct, stress is too much stimulus leading to the animals natural fight or flight reflex, in most cases, its flight- hiding and refusing to eat. I also don't think it's "pleasure", as snake brains are not complex enough to recognize pleasure in the same sense that humans or other social animals do. I would not argue that basking, water, food, is a good thing for them, however it's just fulfilling the instinctual voids that the animal needs to provide. As for investigating the giant, I don't think it's investigating looking for food/interaction, as that would involve some sort of higher thinking, I do believe that the snake will eventually become accustomed to the giant, and it will not cause stress to hinder instinctual behavior.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

I would agree that a snake can feel pain, and stress, however "contentment" and "pain" I do not think snakes feel at all.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Not arguing this, however, humans can think, reasons, solve problems, things of that nature. We can figure out 2+2=4, this is what sets us apart. All animals act on instinct, however, snakes, and most reptiles, do not have the problem solving abilities that we do. That is what makes us different.

[Millinex]

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.

Again, it's just the way we where created in comparison to snakes. Look at the simple things the snake needs to do in its life- eat, drink, hide, maintain proper thermoregulation. Look at what puppies, and humans need to do.. We social, hunt together, talk to each other, interact, solve problems, we have a ton of knowledge to gain in our lives to function properly. I'm positive if we stripped away all the "extras" humans could probably end up producing little versions of themselves that can eat, drink, hide, and survive.

That is obviously enough room for a very small snake. The main issue I have is unless you're keeping it in a heated snake room and using heat tape or heat pad on a very small area of one end, it's difficult to adequately heat the air inside the tank, say, with a ceramic heat emitter or basking bulb, while still maintaining a low enough air temperature on the cool end. It is true that garters do not have exacting temperature requirements, so people take this too far and do not provide enough heating, have too much fluctuation or overheat their garters. There are more temperatures to consider than most people even think of. There's the night time low,(which should be tank-wide) daytime high cool end, daytime high warm end, and there should be enough room for a gradient in between.

Want to know how much heating I put on my garter snakes? A resounding, none. Do you know how much humidity I add to my garters? Very very little. Look at where most of us live, and hell garter snakes manage to live around us, in our homes, sheds, alleys with extreme ease. If they needed extra heat, they frankly wouldn't even be found living in this environment.

This is where plants, logs, hides and other things help to create a range of comfort zones. They are not just "decoration" that the snakes can live without, like some people tend to think.

In my experience, I can find the same snake living year after year under the same board/rock, as long as I do not disturb it, every time it will dart back under the same one, because it's a good undisturbed shelter. Only when I remove the one shelter does it move to a new one, because instincts have told the snake it isn't safe there now.

I just prefer to create and environment that allows for the snake to thermoregulate and move about like it does in nature. Then along comes people and they think they can do it better by sticking them in a tub with heat tape. They think they know better than nature. This is not how garter snakes live normal lives. BP's and retics live like this naturally and people tend to apply it garter snakes as well. Garter snakes are not sedentary. They actively move about even if it's for no particular reason. I've seen the difference in appetite and attitude when you take a garter out of a dang shoebox and give it room, a wide gradient, landscaping, and "natural" lighting. Yes, they do indeed seem "happier" in such a setup.

I'm not claiming I know more than nature you're getting the wrong idea here. Again, I don't use heat tape, I use natural air temperatures of the environment here in Colorado, for my Colorado Snake. You want to add various heating instruments to the enclosure, those aren't found in nature, why are you trying to play better than nature? Again, I'm not claiming my method as better, I'm saying yours is not any better than mine.

My animals have behaved the same in both environments. I've kept garters for 15 years since I was a kid keeping them in buckets in my back yard, I've kept almost every snake introduced into this hobby at some point, I've kept various hots as well, clearly all my husbandry is wrong and I'm cruel for using a tub system. Oh wait.. If I'm not mistaken.. Doesn't Scott use tubs? I hate to say it but he produces some of the best garters I've seen, all from a tub system. Damn, all of us tub using snake breeders don't have the slightest clue!

Just wanted to add to your post Richard, It's way easier to overheat a garter snake than underheat one.

I dislike talking about someone who is absent and cannot speak for themselves, so I'll speak generically.
On the other side of that coin is the fact that sometimes we have "chilly spells" here in New York that can last for a week or more, and the local Garters do just fine.

I'm not challenging what you said in any way, just tossing out a personal observation at what seems like a relevant moment.

Extra heating is not needed for those who keep garters here in America... They do just fine without any heat tape, lights, or heat pads.

Thank you Shannon. You just backed up what I (we.. some of us) have been saying. They do need exercise, they are active, more so than other snakes, they need room. Nicely put.

You can just say "everyone but Millinex", I really won't be offended. Shannon's snakes are excellent, and I have no doubt in her methods of keeping, I'm sure they work great for her. Again, I disagree with some of the methods listed here, disagreeing and doing something differently doesn't mean I'm cruel, huge difference.

Richard, I agree with the "to small for heat gradient" stuff. I am not likely to put anything in there after all. Partly because of heat and just because: what's the point? Buy a bigger tank if you can.
But I do agree that they CAN live in a small tank, even thrive, if you do it right.

If you want the bigger tank, to observe the animal and meet what you're looking for in a cage system, go right ahead, I have no problem with it. I never go onto peoples posts bashing anyones caging, however I'd be willing to bet if I posted pictures of the tubs I use for young garters, I'd have pages of replies saying "that's so cruel and awful" despite the garters being in 100% perfect health.

Also I, and some others, said awhile back, "they have emotions", I don't really think they have EMOTIONS, but they do have some feelings. Fear, curiosity etc.

Fear is not an emotion, it's a chemical triggered in the brain causing the fight or flight reflex, something completely involuntary, and instinctual. Fear is a man-made word. I disagree on "curiosity" though.

I also have nothing against tubs, as long as you still make it a nice habitat. But I do think enclosures are a better choice. For both the snake and the keeper.

And I fully respect that as your opinion. My tubs are very simple normal snake keeping breeding tubs, and I've never had a problem with my snakes in health.



Again people, I have nothing against big enclosures, what I do have a problem with, is the notion that my methods are "cruel" because I use simplistic tubs, and people take into account the enclosure, more than the health of the snake.

-Mike

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Mike, kudos to you for typing that much. My eyes might actually be bleeding now LOL. I for one have no problem with you or your opinions on snakes. I think a lot of the points you make are extremely valid, and are often things that everyone else is either unwilling to say, or refuses to be open to. What it boils down to is that we all have one thing in common... we love snakes. And we care so much about them that we are seriously passionate about being SO RIGHT about how we keep them. Let's all remember that we as snake lovers must remain allies, as we have no other allies in this world. There is not one solution to snake keeping that is absolutely right. What works for me, and what works for the next person, are not the same and they should not be the same.... just as some people feed their snakes in separate containers, and I feed my snakes in their enclosures. And there are people out there who think that is wrong, and will try and press that upon me, and I politely tell them to shove it! I don't have any business telling them they are wrong for feeding their snakes in boxes, and the same should hold true for them. There is nothing more destructive in our hobby than keepers who think their methods are absolutely the best and they feel the need to smear everyone else who does it differently. If everyone would agree to disagree, the world would be a better place.

[ConcinusMan]

However, I'm saying the well decorated tank is done because the owner wants a pretty tank.

I don't know how many times I have to say why it's done that way before you finally understand. It has nothing to do with what I want. If I thought garters were better suited for living in an old cardboard shoebox, then by golly, that's what I would have them in.

Now you're telling me you not only keep them in tubs, but ignore basic proper husbandry such as heat/ temperature gradient and humidity. Then you also tell me there's nothing wrong with putting them on sand and insult us by telling us our "abilities" somehow are keeping us from doing so successfully. Now I'm starting to get irritated. You don't seem to understand one bit any of the reasons for anything related to husbandry. The issue with sand isn't even about impaction. If you knew what the heck you were doing you wouldn't be saying that. You sound completely clueless. I feel sorry for your snakes.

Well you must have some magic power to be able to ignore all of this and keep snakes healthy long term. I can tell you right now that if I kept a garter on sand, in a tub, and no heat, it would go downhill fast. Dang near everything you say about their husbandry is complete opposite of everything I've learned through trial and error over 25 years. It's as if you're trying to tell me, and just about everyone here, that we've been doing it wrong all this time, or that nothing we've come to know about their husbandry is valid.

[Millinex]

Mike, kudos to you for typing that much. My eyes might actually be bleeding now LOL. I for one have no problem with you or your opinions on snakes. I think a lot of the points you make are extremely valid, and are often things that everyone else is either unwilling to say, or refuses to be open to. What it boils down to is that we all have one thing in common... we love snakes. And we care so much about them that we are seriously passionate about being SO RIGHT about how we keep them. Let's all remember that we as snake lovers must remain allies, as we have no other allies in this world. There is not one solution to snake keeping that is absolutely right. What works for me, and what works for the next person, are not the same and they should not be the same.... just as some people feed their snakes in separate containers, and I feed my snakes in their enclosures. And there are people out there who think that is wrong, and will try and press that upon me, and I politely tell them to shove it! I don't have any business telling them they are wrong for feeding their snakes in boxes, and the same should hold true for them. There is nothing more destructive in our hobby than keepers who think their methods are absolutely the best and they feel the need to smear everyone else who does it differently. If everyone would agree to disagree, the world would be a better place.

Exactly what I was getting at, I'm not one to beat around the bush and be all afraid to say what's on my mind. I live in America, and this is the internet. On both I will freely exercise my freedom of speech, regardless of if people agree with me. That is part of what makes reptile husbandry so great, the fact that not one person has all the answers!

I don't know how many times I have to say why it's done that way before you finally understand. It has nothing to do with what I want. If I thought garters were better suited for living in an old cardboard shoebox, then by golly, that's what I would have them in.

Again, this is a disagreement. You feel that the snake needs more, however in all reality, I'd be willing to bet my car, house, and every animal in my collection I could show you side by side photos of snakes the same age, raised in both methods, and you could not pick out the tub raised individuals.

Now you're telling me you not only keep them in tubs, but ignore basic proper husbandry such as heat/ temperature gradient and humidity.

Far from the truth, people have kept garters for YEARS in all sorts of random things with absolutely no ill effects. I raised many as a kid, and bred them, between ages 5-10 in nothing more than 5 gallon buckets, with some grass thrown in, feeding nothing but worms. This is a NA native snake, you can meet all of its basic needs pretty easily without the use of heat pads, mats, lights, or other such heating fixtures, and I have done so for many many years. Although, clearly, because I do something differently, and the same way I have for years, I'm ignoring basic husbandry. The funny thing is, I have very expensive showcase cages, maintained at perfect humidity and temps for tropical species, to imitate their natural environment, but when I mimic the same for a native here, in my own way, I'm told I don't know what I'm doing. LOL.

Then you also tell me there's nothing wrong with putting them on sand

Because you can't manage to read what I posted "as long as you give them other areas/substrates as well", something along those lines. I've found HUNDREDS of garter snakes in sandy environments, although clearly the snake in the wild stops and thinks "oh wait, this is sand" and steers clear of the area, and never utilizes it. WRONG. Caught many snakes on sand, it's a very natural substrate and if used properly can do nothing but enhance the naturalistic effect of the substrate/environment chosen. Again, I never said pure sand, due to the roughness of its texture and the fact over time, only sand would probably cause irritation and scale damage.

and insult us by telling us our "abilities" somehow are keeping us from doing so successfully. Now I'm starting to get irritated. You don't seem to understand one bit any of the reasons for anything related to husbandry. The issue with sand isn't even about impaction. If you knew what the heck you were doing you wouldn't be saying that. You sound completely clueless. I feel sorry for your snakes.

I'm not insulting anyone, I'm saying that when you bring up sand, and herps, the most common phrase is "impaction" clearly you haven't been around the reptile hobby enough to know that a huge number of herps die each year from sand impaction, and it's probably one of the most common things I get emails about. I'm saying that if maintained properly, you can use some sand in your enclosures, as you would very easily find sand outside, animals use it all the time, although clearly this natural substance is awful, and should be replaced by repti-bark or carefresh. If I where to say that all the garters I ever displayed in a public room where always kept on dirt, I'd probably have people cry over that too, despite the fact that these animals live on dirt in the wild.

Do you really want me to list off the other problems with using sand as your only substrate? The roughness can damage scales, it can cause eye/nose irritation, impaction, it's messy, it absorbs and radiates a ton of heat if left too close to an open window. The list goes on and on why sand is not a good pure substrate, however some sand, is not going to kill your snake, do some field herping and educate yourself.

You feel sorry for my snakes? Because I don't keep them in naturalistic environments? The commercial snake industry is supplied by 2 sets of people mainly: captive hatchers, and breeders. Every breeder I have EVER met, uses a rack system. BHB enterprises, one of the top breeders of captive snakes uses racks, and does amazing business, and produces some extremely quality animals, so does Scott, so does my personal friend Dave, I mean hell if you want I can go list off a few hundred more breeders like Ben Seigel and Tom Crutchfield, some of the biggest names in captive snake breeding, but again, we are all cruel for using tubs/racks and you feel sorry for our snakes.

If you want, I'll be glad to post pictures of all of my animals, including the snakes living in the $1600 showcase cages my girlfriend purchased for her snakes, and I helped set up and I help maintain. Guess what, I have nothing against the cages, she enjoys them, and fully admits she got them for her enjoyment, because she likes to display her snakes rather than the rack I keep mine in. We have proper humidity, temp gradients, you name it, we have it on these cages, literally the whole 9 yards, she also has 2 baby corn snakes in tubs. Clearly though, you feel sorry for the snakes. Bash someone else, because if you want to have a go at me, I have no problem having a go at you.

Well you must have some magic power to be able to ignore all of this and keep snakes healthy long term. I can tell you right now that if I kept a garter on sand, in a tub, and no heat, it would go downhill fast. Dang near everything you say about their husbandry is complete opposite of everything I've learned through trial and error over 25 years. It's as if you're trying to tell me, and just about everyone here, that we've been doing it wrong all this time, or that nothing we've come to know about their husbandry is valid.

Again, learn to read, I never said using only sand is acceptable, can you not figure this out? I'm going to explain AGAIN, since you missed it and decided to selectively read to try to make a valid argument. Instead you made yourself look stupid. I said sand is acceptable with other substrates, not alone, because it can cause problems. Again, when you talk about sand and herps, the most COMMON THING BROUGHT UP, in nearly every scenario I have ever dealt with is "it impacts reptiles".

I keep mine in tubs, paper towel, water dish, and hide. They are kept in an outdoor shed that maintains 75-90 degrees in the day, and around 70 at night. They have a window on both sides of the shed, and get plenty of adequate lighting as well. I find these snakes in the exact same conditions living in the wild, literally, the only difference is that the shed doesn't temp spike to 110 like it sometimes does here, but then again, garters at this altitude don't come out at that time regardless, it's simply too hot. If you're saying you cant keep a garter healthy, in the same conditions as the area you've caught it from, than you are by far the most foolish reptile keeper I have ever met.

I've noticed your ability to selectively read, so I'll spell it out again for you, in hopes you manage to actually read and understand:
I have NOTHING against the use of realistic looking enclosures. I have used both and found ZERO difference in end result in keeping the snake. However, that doesn't make it ok to look down on my method of keeping in tubs and say "that's so cruel and wrong" because my snakes are just as healthy as yours in a natural enclosure.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

We are clearly not understanding each other. There are agreements, disagreements, and then there is a complete failure to get the point. It's obvious from your responses that you are completely missing my point every time. It's like you're not even hearing me. You keep arguing is such a way that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding my statements completely. You're arguing against things that weren't even my point. Not even close.

There's really no point in continuing. You're not hearing a word I'm saying.

[Millinex]

We are clearly not understanding each other. There are agreements, disagreements, and then there is a complete failure to get the point. It's obvious from your responses that you are completely missing my point every time. It's like you're not even hearing me. You keep arguing is such a way that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding my statements completely. You're arguing against things that weren't even my point. Not even close.

There's really no point in continuing. You're not hearing a word I'm saying.

Of course I'm not hearing a word you're saying. I'm reading it and reading it multiple times. The sad part is I have to re-read your posts over and over to get anywhere, because you are a selective reader plain and simple.

Would you like pictures? Hell I'll even post side by side pictures of a 2 year old male ball python raised in someone's very fancy reptile enclosure, and a picture of my girlfriends 1 year old ball, raised in a tub. Guess which one's healthier

I never bashed your point of view, your arguments have been 100% invalid and ignorant, and you've failed to read anything I've typed. Again, I have nothing against your way of keeping, despite what you seem to think.

[ConcinusMan]

You see, there it is again.

[Millinex]

You see, there it is again.

Like you selectively reading the fact I see tubs as the only way to keep. The way you selectively read that I support sand as use for a substrate. Lol, I could go on, but you're helpless, you can't even hold a solid argument without becoming insulting. No big deal to me though, the thread will go on fine without your input

[ConcinusMan]

Like you selectively reading the fact I see tubs as the only way to keep. The way you selectively read that I support sand as use for a substrate. Lol, I could go on, but you're helpless, you can't even hold a solid argument without becoming insulting. No big deal to me though, the thread will go on fine without your input

If that's what you think, then you just drove home my point. You didn't hear anything I said and completely missed the point. I'm sorry you think I said or meant something I did not. Like I said, obviously there has been a breakdown of communication.

You win because quite frankly you're tiring me out.