garter/water snakes hybrid possiblities?

[GarterGuy]

RidleyCreek State Park, no never heard of it, but that's what the internet is for. Yeh, I hit the Maryland show every now and then....didn't realize there was herping around it though. Not much going on in my neck of the woods now.....everything is still got snow on it. I want to do some real heavy herping this year though, so we'll have to hook up and get out there!
Roy

[ClosedCasket88]

definately roy , im going out today , its suppose to be 65 , first nice day after this last snow n cold front we got so hopefully ill get lucky .my digi camera broke =( what am i to do ?
but yes roy behind the maryland show thers a township dump wich is a goldmine for all kindsa stuf due to theconcret clabs and cut down trees and evrything they throw down there . then thers a couple of hills down to the valley next to the river , once u get dwon to the rivers edge that u see over the 1-95 bridge thers ponds lakes, bogs , all kindsa water land area perefct for garters watersnakes , black rats , eastern milks n such.
you should def go down to this upcoming MD show , perfect time of the year lets just hope we get good weather that day .
and ridley creek state park is between me and you. its another goldmine for garters as well as other colonizers . its a good 4 mile radius of creek,ponds, lowland,highland, rocky areas , wooded area, cattailed/marsh areas, evrything for all kindsa reptiles youl find around here .im actualy headed up there today but i dotn know how good it will be considering im going around dinner when its the hottest part of the day . it doesnt get in the 60s till after 1;00 then hits 65ish around 4-6 oclock, im going outaround 4:30 to see what i can make of this trip.
ill keep ya posted. get ahold of me before this upcoming MD show , ill show u around, youl love it , bring a camera if your into photography of scenery and wildlife

[Thamnophis]

No chance. They're from different genera (plural of genus) and probably have a different number of chromosomes. They definitely wouldn't have the same genes in the same order, so their chromosomes wouldn't pair up properly after fertilization (assuming they would or could even mate). Genetically, they're way too different.

Rick

I agree with you, Rick. But there are always exceptions on rules. Think Pantherophis X Lampropeltis. I´ve bred the myself once and they gave marvelous young. But that was an experiment that I´ve done once and all the young now live in a terrarium of one of my brothers. And they wuill stay there till they die.

But Thamnophis X Nerodia... maybe it will work in some cases. Nerodia species X Thamnophis rufipunctatus?

[Thamnophis]

I would like to make a list of species that will produce hybrids for sure because it has happend already.

And next to that a list of species that might produce hybrids because they are close related, but of which it is not done yet.

And a list of species of which is thought it is not possible to produce hybrids.

So people who ave any experience with this, please write it down.

Personally I have no experience with hybrids of Thamnophis.

[KITKAT]

In general, animals of the same species but different subspecies will interbreed, and the offspring will be fertile.

Animals of different species but the same genus may interbreed, and the offspring may be fertile.

Animals of different species and different genera will very rarely interbreed, and the offspring will very rarely be fertile.

I would like to make a list of species that will produce hybrids for sure because it has happend already.

And next to that a list of species that might produce hybrids because they are close related, but of which it is not done yet.

And a list of species of which is thought it is not possible to produce hybrids.

So people who ave any experience with this, please write it down.

Personally I have no experience with hybrids of Thamnophis.

[ClosedCasket88]

interesting, ive also noticed that water snakes have a red and black tipped tongue , another simalarity between the two thatwoulda led me to belive it might work . i guess looks shapes sizes could be all the same but the genus and specific scientific difference just wont work .
i doubt it will work cause im sure there woulda beensome sort of natural integrade caught already .
first think i thought of was hmmm brown orange bands mixed with green stripes? could get interesting

[Cazador]

Hi Fons,

This is a neat idea. The "biological species concept" states that true species are unable to interbreed with one another in the wild. The barriers might be anatomical, genetic, behavioral, geographic separation, etc., so one should start by assuming that different species cannot interbreed. However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and sometimes things interbreed in captivity when they wouldn't in the wild. One could get a pretty good clue about which species are most likely to hybridize in captivity by looking at the phylogenetic charts in Rossman et al. to see which different species are most closely related. I don't have my book here at the office, or I'd have a quick look.

Rick

[adamanteus]

One shoudl start by assuming that different species cannot interbreed. However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and sometimes things interbreed in captivity when they wouldn't in the wild. Rick

Yeah, like the so called "Jungle Corn" half Corn Snake, half King Snake. Who came up with that combination? And why?

[ClosedCasket88]

yeah the last thing i woulda done is put my cornsnake in my kingsnake tank

[Thamnophis]

I take care of somejunglecorns in the zoo and they are very beautiful and strong. Very nice pets.
Which does not mean that everyone has to interbreed, but the snakes that are born are mostly okay.
We did not produce them ourselves, but this arre snakes that were found after they had escaped/dumped.
We also will not breed with them.
We have a large terrarium in the zoo in which a lot of Pantherophis live (guttatus, obsoletus). This are all snakes we got because they were found on the street or given to us because people would not take care of them anymore. This can lead to hybrids.
No problem, because we will throw away all eggs from these snakes.

@ Cazador... I agree with what you say. And I will take a close look at my Rossman book.

But what I am looking for is proven breeding between two species.And you always have to be carefull in what snakes you put together.

Problem sometimes is that people do not know what species they have. And this can lead to accidental hybrids.