PUGET Update (Vet Visit & more ;))

[adamanteus]

I wish I lived in the States! You're so lucky to have such diversity in your reptile fauna. Here in the UK we're stuck with our three snake species (one of wish is totally protected), and only one sub-species of each!! Yawn!

[Brian]

Marian,
From what I have seen of your blue/green garters. I would say your blue ones look more like ordinoides and your green one looks more typical of sirtalis.
I'm basing this on the head and the look of the stripes and the color.
I've never seen bright blue pudget sound garters only turqoise green or some other shade of green.

So the problem may be that you are still in need of a ordinoides boy and a pudget girl if you hope to breed them. If you could provide full body shots from above of all three and head shots from the side of all three that would be the best way to tell for sure. I saw the head shot from the side of one girl in another thread and it definately has the blunt head that would make me say
oridinoides. Its hard to tell with out seeing the body in relation to the head though.

My theory is that "bob", knows of a local densite near his house in Washington where both ordinoides and sirtlais hibernate and he plucks several out of it each year to sell. They do hibernate and live togeather but hybrids are unknown to my knowledge. NW's are thought to be slug and worm specialists which also prey on small salamanders, frogs, and fish. Whereas sirtalis in that area will likely eat anything they can take down. It would be interesting if you were to note any differences in the willingness of your green male (probable sirtalis) to take mice vs. your blue females to take mice. If you have them togeather think about seperating the male from the females and giving mice a full go with him. Also, despite the natural size differences in male and female sirtalis, your male sirtalis will likely outgrow your female ordinoides which would be another clue.

If you really want to find out what they are, You could do the newt test. If they can eat a toxic red newt from the NW and survive then they are sirtalis if they die they are ordinoides. Of course I'm kidding but that would be a sure way to tell.

Cazador,
I agree with all of the things you posted regarding these two species except for the width of the dorsal stripe. As I explained above that is quite variable in ordinoides. Thanks for providing the sources of your information.

Don,
That's a very cool looking northwestern you found a pic of.
So many garters so little time and space.
Too bad I have too many garters already.

[Cazador]

Brian,

Thanks a million for weighing in. As you saw, my comments are coming from field guides, so I totally defer to your experience. Don (ssssnakeluvr) and I think Roy (GarterGuy) also said that at least some of our snakes are probably T. ordinoides. It's nice to get those second and third opinions, though. Interestingly, some of my blue garters also show contrasting characteristics. Perhaps more than one of us were shipped separate species of different sexes. Conspiracy theories abound . Cheers,

Rick

[mikm]

hello again Brian ... How very kind of you to share your knowledge and experience not to mention your time spent composing your analysis !!! VERY much appreciated Brian ... As for my brood ... I believe the "newt test" may seem drastic but perhaps it's the only way ... ... Seriously I find these Pacific Blues to be by far the most intriguing garters I have ever owned for several reasons. Just when I believe I have one distinctive trait positively identified, "it" seems to change after further observation. For instance the head shape ... To me it does not ever appear as clear cut as an obviously shorter, square shaped head like pics of NW's I have seen. However it's also not pronounced Eastern trinagular either. It seems somewhere in between. Further complicating this I suspect is their natural inclination to flatten their heads in an aggressive posture versus their flight/flee pose which tenses them up thus "thinning out" their overall appearance head shape inclusive. To further add to these anomalies, when I recieved this 1.2, color aside, I definately thought my male appeared different then the girls, head shape and overall body seemed to be noticeably slender. As for feeding, HE is the one who refuses rodents whereas the girls appear to have that "eat anything" vigor. All of these Blues were seperated after their vet visit and will remain so at least until the meds are finished. As such I can monitor their feeding closely. I toss a few f/t pinks in with some salmon strips. The girls will now consume all (3 or 4) of the pinks along with most of the salmon offered, individually, to each. The male however will grab a pink but spits it out a few inches from his feeding bowl EVERY TIME !! I put it back in, he removes it, lol ... After repeating this process during several different feeding ventures (times/days) I have given up as I was wasting too many pinks !!!

Last but not least there is something about their inclination to remain passive that I suspect tugs at our emotions making them very personable and appealing to us. An adult animal (possibly WC even), straight out of a snake bag from shipping, are docile preferring to curl up in your hand and remain still. If you pry a little so you can see their face they oblige, then tuck their heads in when they have had enough. On their own, in their enclosures they appear very curious, propping their heads up, "observing" their environment. They are out and about at least 90% of the time. I intend on taking some better pics, specifics as you directed, this weekend. I'll email them to you privately then perhaps I can post the ones you feel display identifying characteristics.

THANKS Brian ...
marian

[sschind]

There is a website where people can post about their bad experiences. Check out Faunaclassifieds.com and go to their Board of Inquiry page. The site has gone through a lot of changes recently, I know registration is required and for a while you had to pay a fee to be able to post. I think that has been recinded however. Be aware that anyone wishing to post in the BOI forum is required to provide their full name and this will be verified through the registration process. I did not buy from Bob, I was ready to but a word of warning from cazador probably saved me some money and grief, so I will not make a post but if someone who has had a negative experience care to do so it may serve as a warning to others. If you are not familiar with the FC site I would encourage you to read it over a bit before you make a post. The regulars there can be a bit rough if you don't explain yourself well. Be sure to put in only the facts of the deal, the problems with the snakes, the lack of communication etc. You will get responses to the effect of "they were WC what did you expect" etc so just be warned. Be clear if your motivation was a refund or if you just wanted Bob to acknowledge the problem. I'm not trying to dictate the post to you, It's just that I used to spend way to much time on that site andI know how things can blow up in someones face if they don't approach the situation correctly. Also, If you do decide to start a post make a link to the threads on this board, and let people here know about that thread so they can go on and make their own posts. Even if you decide not to post, check out the site. Do a search, it just may save you some trouble in the long run.

Steve