Revolutionary new food item! :D

[KITKAT]

Brought inadvertently to the United States more than a century ago in plants imported from Japan, the earthworms are common in areas where people live, including Clarke County.
But now they're moving into wild forests like the Smokies, and scientists fear the voracious worms could disrupt the forests' ecological balance from the bottom up, consuming the leaf layer of soil that's a key part of the forest life cycle.
Just how much risk they pose isn't clear, Callaham said.
They don't look much different than other earthworms - 5 or 6 inches long, a little fatter than most.
But in maple forests in Minnesota where the worms have taken up residence, the leaf litter - decaying leaves and other plant material - has disappeared where the worms have invaded, Callaham said.
Layers of leaf litter that took 100 years to build up have disappeared in months, along with big and little creatures that lived in the litter.
Some plant species also seem to be declining in the worms' wake, and some scientists fear that could be the first evidence of bigger changes the worms are wreaking on the maple forests, Callaham said.

Read the entire article:

OnlineAthens.com | News | Invasive Asian earthworms hooked on destruction 11/05/07

[Zephyr]

we're talking recent history here and survival of the fittest takes WAY longer than that -

Or does it?

[Zephyr]

Yeah, that was actually the only info I found on the asian worms.
Personally, I think things will balance out eventually.

[Garter_Gertie]

Actually, it is not just the Asian worms. It's the Canadian night crawlers and others. All worms used for bait and then are dumped. You are sighting only one example.

As I posted earlier, a link to a MN DNR info on worms in MN, until approximately 300 +/- years ago, there were no native worms here but for a native aquatic one that garters don't eat

You are siting recent history. Prior to +/- 300 years ago the garters in MN did not eat worms. They did the frog, native minnows, small birds, carrion thing.

And yes. For survival of the fittiest to occur, it takes hundreds and hundreds - if not thousands - of years to pass for evolution to occur. What you're seeing now, in garters and the eating of non-native earth worms (at least in MN) is opportunistic and is contributing to the evolution of garters here. However, so far nothing in the lines of survial of the fittest has occured since the garters' original source of food has not dissapated.

[Zephyr]

I'm just saying that maybe the reason garters have become so "Successful" is because of the worms. We have no records of their population sizes before, oh maybe 1900.
Also, I tend to stay away from the term "Evolution." Natural selection and survival of the fittest can be proven in a lab, evolution can't.

[Garter_Gertie]

But as Dekay said, garters are not successful. While they have become opportunistic and found easier means of getting food - worms vs. their usual diet (far easier to cabbage onto a worm than swim for a native minnow) - they populations are nowhere increasing, but actuall decreasing.

And how are you able to differientate between natual selection, survival of the fittiest and evolution when, as a whole, they are the same?

You're correct. Evolution cannot be proven in a lab while et al can, as it takes thousnads of years for survival of the fittest/natural selection to induce evolution.

Look at yourself, man. You monkey, you!

[Zephyr]

Ah, but in a simulated environment I've yet to see Billy the chimp become Kyle the human. Though it may take thousands of years, I've yet to meet any one who's been alive for more than 120, so who's to say the planet's even been around for that long. :O

There are plenty of other factors that could be hitting hard on garters; I blame loss of habitat as the primary one.
What I do wonder is if one were to compare garter population from 1970's to the population size today, factoring in the given amount of land actually usable to the garters, if they would be an equal ratio.
AKA,
60 garters per square mile in a surveyed area of 60 square miles in 1970 (or any other date)
As compared to 30 garters per square mile in 30 square miles surveyed in 2008.

[Garter_Gertie]

And it is loss of habitat, Zepher, that's contributing to garters turning from their normal diet to worms. That are become ever more available as they [the worms] desinagrate the natural woods. Gods Bless Garters!

But there is the problem. Normal garter habitat is decreasing. Thus garters turn to worms that are readily available. Loss of habitat leads to less matings, less garters born. However, those that survive survive on less than natural/usual food - worms. They stay. And as their habitat decreases, so they do as they've turned to worms for their major diet.

Whatever, Zepher. You're seeing evolution - as so the passenger pidgeon - in garters. Not even plains garters' natural food has ever been worms.

If you want to get het-up about something, go in the opposite direction. Instead of praising worms and beliveing erroneoulsy they're the gods send to garters, open your eyes and see the truth - they may well be the downfall and demise of garters.

You've got the belief, you're just a bit misguided.

[Zephyr]

But if there's no consistent data that says that the worms are dooming garters, why believe it? Obviously the garters can live in a variety of habitats. If the worms are present, it indicates an area with a lot of soil aeration and obviously if the worms are accessible to the garters there's a forest floor.
Also, did we ever think that worms are a better diet for garters then say, fish?
Tilapia, salmon, etc, is what we feed them in captivity, but in the wild it's a thiaminase filled world of sunfish, bass, cyprinids and catfish they've got to deal with.
And as for amphibian, doesn't every one on here tell beginners not to feed an amphibian diet due to parasites?
All I'm saying is, if it isn't killing garters, it's making them stronger. If the worms were making such a large impact, we'd be seeing more of native fauna die off; when it's the opposite. We see them moving into our yards and out of areas recently refurbished from forest to human dwelling.
I will stand by my beliefs that the biggest threat to garters is the destruction of one, their den sites, which in turn is mainly caused by overall habitat destruction.
The worms themselves may be a God send to garters; gardeners always praise worms for overturning the soil and keeping things from getting stagnant. As long as the worms are available, and there's a den waiting some where nearby of course, there will be garters. Until some what proves, in a lab, that the entire scenario is dooming garters, I will remain on my side of the hypothetical debate.

[Garter_Gertie]

We are seeing native flora die off. Check it out. The link I posted previously.

Whatever, Zepher. You've not an open mind, nor caring one - from my perspective. You've your own agenda and will do whatever you need to to justify it instead of listening to what is really the case. I'm tired of presenting you with facts and realities.

You will believe what you want and what suites your erroneus suppostions and ideas. Have at'ur. Thanks for allowing me to speak my mind.