Vagans/Wandering Garters

[jitami]

Ah, I hadn't thought of the size difference. I do remember you mentioning that in another thread. Makes a lot of sense now!

[Stefan-A]

Then again, I'm probably a bit too scared of cannibalism.

I think I'll house it with the parietalis, once it has grown another 10 cm. Should take another 3 sheds or so.

[Stefan-A]

How significant is the size difference between the sexes? Does anybody here have a picture of an adult male and an adult female vagrans together?

[Garter_Gertie]

Then again, I'm probably a bit too scared of cannibalism.

I think I'll house it with the parietalis, once it has grown another 10 cm. Should take another 3 sheds or so.

Why do you say three sheds, Stefan? Do snakes grow about/approximately .33 cm a shed? (Or is that measurement based on what/how often you feed?) And what would that be in inches?

[Lexa]

I'm confused - why wouldn't you be allowed to breed them? Surely if none of the babies are released, it shouldn't be an issue...

[Stefan-A]

Why do you say three sheds, Stefan? Do snakes grow about/approximately .33 cm a shed? (Or is that measurement based on what/how often you feed?) And what would that be in inches?

I base it on how much they've grown between sheds up until now. It has been almost exactly 5 cm. One of the snakes is one shed behind, since it hasn't eaten lately and it's almost 5 cm shorter. It was slightly longer than the other one a few months ago. I said 3 instead of 2 just to be sure. I guess their growth rate has been pretty well documented in my thread.

[jitami]

California regulations actually say that we're not allowed to "propagate" them... I find my mind wandering to ways around this, but that's probably not the right thing to do. If there was a way around it that I was comfortable with I would probably go find a girl for my male T. e. elegans.

[Garter_Gertie]

Ah. Okay. So that's something I should watch. Thanks!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

My thoughts on housing snakes together: Cannibalism set aside, I believe it is a good practice to keep snakes housed separately. My main reason for this is so you can monitor their health, their bowel movements, etc. Honestly, I can't expect to be watching my snakes 24/7, so if I am pondering their passings, I can't possibly know who left what behind! (Especially if I am concerned about competitive basking! Many snakes, esp. smaller ones, often are intimidated into not taking their place on the best spot for thermo-regulation.)

I also wanted to mention that, in regards to CA Dept of Fish and Game regulations... Not only can you not breed native Thamnophis in CA, you need to watch your species bag limit (see CDF&G freshwater regulations booklet). For instance, if you have 1 vagrans (Wandering) and 1 elegans (Mountain), that's it! That's all you are allowed to have. This would also include terrestris (Coast). Simple reason is that the bag limit for the Western Terrestrial Garter is 2! All 3 of the garters I mentioned are subspecies of the elegans complex. Subspecies do not count in regards to the bag limit.

The same would apply to sirtalis (infernalis and fitchi) - one of each or 2 of one, but not more than 3 snakes total! [Note: So Cal specimens of infernalis are protected by law.]

The same would apply to the atratus complex.

Keeping it legal for the sake of conservation,

Steven

[Garter_Gertie]

Yup. Legal. That's why Kenabec (Hoggy) is CB. Hoggies and Bulls are species of interest in MN.

I sure hope not too many garters go legal. There's SO MANY native ones I want!