Social behaviour in snakes

[Stefan-A]

note that i said pretty much......................
unless we all have the degrees in herpetology and zoology and the decades of experience.............which would stand to reason that the list of possibilities would be pretty small

Note that I said "annoying", not "incompetent". However, people can do things wrong for decades, just because nobody has been around to tell them how to do things properly.

And I dislike his show even more. Pretends to run around in the wilderness alone while his two or three camera men are filming from angles that suggest they've climbed up that tree or mountain or mesa or whatever long before he even got there. It may be entertaining for some, but it annoys the hell out of me.

ps. into herps since age 4 and autodidact on a number of subjects. I think that makes 2.5 decades.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This thread has slightly changed topics. I don't want to or like to knock naturalists down, but it should be known that a lot of the herp entertainer/photographer/blah-blah-blahs are not all bonafide scientists or zoologists. Steve Irwin was the only one I ever saw scale a tree after a mamba (you should not do this!). That's passion. Sure he probably knew more about crocs. The "Wow! A snake!" fake discoveries set up by camera crews are a dime a dozen, and I know Austin Stevens and Jeff Corwin are no different. Remember, we are talking about television ratings. I can't count how many false statements about wildlife have been made on Animal Planet!

As for the original "argument" about social behavior in snakes, I find the adder story very interesting and worthy of more research. HOWEVER, I am absolutely disappointed when humans jump to conclusions about the social behavior of their pets or animals in general. The key problem is "anthropomorphization" - pet owners are always exclaiming how their pets are bonding with them. I can understand the endotherms, and perhaps even such squamates as beardies (which are very social), but social behavior in snakes is too new a possible reality to make such assumptions. Perhaps in some species there might be an awakening of sorts (i.e. the adders... or king cobras, who are the only known species to actually build a nest and protect the eggs.) I have been keeping snakes for years, and I have put different snakes (of the same species!) together and observed varied activities (or none) between different sexes and same sexes. There is no current proof that the proposed social behavior among snakes is exactly that. And if the behavior is in captivity, forget it! They are in an enclosed environment.

And who is putting different species together? And where did they learn herpetocultural ethics? If you do not have room to house your pets appropriately, wait on the acquisitions.

I'll stop now. I don't need emoticons to show how I feel. Advice from a garter forum should be based on information that is scientifically sound. Assumptions do not create truth.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Oh yeah... I feel the instinctive (often orgiastic) mating drives in garters are just that. A larger female being chased by an onslaught of smaller hormone-driven males is just a big competition. Because there are a whole bunch of garters trying to get some does not mean they are "bonding". I see a whole bunch of males trying to get the girl (like sperm the egg!).

Communal hibernation is a survival mechanism in many snakes. The danger of sharing your den with another snake that might even eat you is over-ridden by an instinct to survive the cold. If we want to assume, it would be safer (never safer! LOL!) to believe that nature has her seasonal periods where animals just "obey the weather" - "time to stop eating, and sleep for the winter". (I'm still laughing)

As for inbreeding and the "survival of the fittest" - There may have been a time when hibernation dens were more prevalent, numerous? The fact is, yes there is a risk of in-breeding among isolated hibernacula. Nature doesn't care! Survival of the fittest is indeed the law! Please note that animals go extinct naturally all the time. If a healthy species becomes isolated and is then subject to inbreeding and weakens and dies out, that's just tough luck! (I don't subscribe to luck either - just a word) Right now there are whiptail lizard species who are parthenogenetic (no males; females clone themselves!)... These lizards exist... Once upon a time there used to be males.... Cloned offspring? Genetic integrity? Unless evolution has a trick up its sleeve, these species are doomed to extinction!
Happens all the time! That's just an example. In the case of garters, as long as a substantial part of the population isn't in-breeding, the species still has some time on the planet. Yee-haaaa!

[Zephyr]

But they're has to be some reason why I've found snakes "Snuggling" together under boards and whatnot! In fact, it's been garter-garter, female-female, and even dekay's-garter! I'd bet they see each other as a way to preserve body heat and possibly as the indicator of a food source.

[Stefan-A]

I think it may be as much about what they don't see each other as: Threats.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

...And that hidey-place under the boards was a good one! I often go field-herping, and I will cover miles of terrain, only to find a group of snakes in one area only - a place where there was cover. It sheer opportunism, and if they are not a threat to one another, as mentioned, no problem... Doesn't mean they are getting friendly!

[infernalis]

Steven,
Thank you, I could not agree more. I have tried for as long as I can, but oh well, at the risk of upsetting some of our members here goes..

lets just say that "croc diaries" is your favorite show, every time it is on, you sit on the sofa with "fluffy" the garter snake, In time "fluffy" associates this with sitting in your warm hand while you watch the show.

Now as much as some may want to believe that "fluffy" likes "croc diaries" and you may want to log right on to your favorite forum and tell the world,
"Croc diaries is fluffy's favorite show" you would only be attaching a HUMAN response to an observation that seems to have no other explanation.

Folks we are only scratching the surface here, if socialization was really "that common" then the study performed on those adder sisters would be no big deal, however since this is so rare to see, it IS a big deal.

Great brain food here, my cranium desires more

[adamanteus]

Unfortunately, Wayne, no study on the possibility of social behaviour between these two siblings is being undertaken. The observation that these two apparently 'live together' is just that, a chance observation.
The study is actually dealing solely with population status and longevity in the species.

[Zephyr]

...And that hidey-place under the boards was a good one! I often go field-herping, and I will cover miles of terrain, only to find a group of snakes in one area only - a place where there was cover. It sheer opportunism, and if they are not a threat to one another, as mentioned, no problem... Doesn't mean they are getting friendly!

But in the environment I observed, there was plenty of ground cover, most of which was symmetrical; such as a series of boards lying in a row parallel to eachother. There were always snakes together under ONE board as opposed to the others. Now before everyone starts going all "MICRO ECOS" on me, I still think that garters prefer to be together, or at least with other snakes. Maybe it's not a liking for it but it's certainly more than a tolerance.

[adamanteus]

There is certainly a lot of 'micro ecos' about it though, Kyle... perhaps a couple of the boards are too tight to the ground, perhaps there's an ants nest under a couple of them, maybe this one gets more sunshine than that one etc........
However, after reading about the Adder sisters and speaking to the guy who recorded this, I think there must be something else going on..... I don't know what.