shoot...

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

What about striking T. s. infernalis? As you leave Humboldt County going south, you get specimens with brighter red heads. South of the Klamath River (No. Humboldt) you begin to see the effects of an intergrade zone with T. s. fitchi. The older guide books place the limit of fitchi at north of the mouth of the Klamath River and infernalis at south of the mouth of the Klamath. Intergradation has taken a strong hold on the southern side; and fitchi's black head is travelling south. This is NATURE doing its thing. In this case it may be natural for infernalis' bright red heads to eventually be bled over with black pigments further south in the distant future. Once again, it is not for us to decide this course (intentionally or by accident), but this may be the outcome.

[jeanette]

lets pose this one question then........how can we all guarantee that the garters that we buy in pet shops are not in fact those who come from a dirty gene pool?
just becasue they look like a certain breed and act like a certain breed does not mean that they are not a mixed breed that just happens to have reverted to an ancestors looks.
the simple fact here is that we as a human race have persistantly played god with animals gene pool its enviroment and its life.......in every case the animal has paid the price. as previously stated in europe we dont have these garters naturally and if one breeder had a lot escape then you are not only going to get mixed breed garters roaming free, they are going to be roaming free in an alien habitat.
breeding is something everyone thinks they should be able to do with their own rules,
and if accidents happen, the animal suffers. if the litter/clutch doesnt turn out right then its the animal that suffers.
wheres the justice in this? the mixed breed clutch should be rehomed, maybe theres a sanctuary that can take them, maybe you have to hope that SOME people can be trusted, maybe you want toplay god and decide who should live and who should die, but my opinion is these are living creatures and they do deserve a chance

[drache]

Specifically in the case of these garter intergrades (and they are so pretty, who wouldn't want them!)- Two unbordered subspecies have reintegrated their unique genetics and have muddled the line. If they escape or are captively bred, the tainting will spread.

as far as I can see, T.s.sirtalis and T.s.parietalis do have overlapping territories
whether flames occur in that overlapping region, I haven't a clue
but I don't suppose it makes any difference whether they could occur in nature

[gregmonsta]

lets pose this one question then........how can we all guarantee that the garters that we buy in pet shops are not in fact those who come from a dirty gene pool?

I did see plains x checkereds advertised last year. At least someone was either being honest or was bad at identifying the species. Anyway ... what about the effects of the general inbreeding necessary to keep some strains 'pure' (ie. reduced lifespan in some breeding groups of tetratanea or indeed flames as mentioned on another thread)?

[Lumpy]

I understand nature vs. man, but...

To follow that idea to it's purest end, then we shouldn't even own snakes and better to leave them to their "natural" state. Then the possibility of human foul up is 0%.

As I said earlier, how many people right on this board own non-native speices of snakes? Snakes that are not native to their region or country? How are these owners any more/less responsible to not loose their pets and or breed them irresponsibily? Right here on this board a snake has been lost. I hope it's found, and I'm sure the owner is responsible individual, but things happen. If any one of us trades/sells any snake, what guarantee do we have that that animal will be responsibly owned and not bred incorrectly or lost to the wild?

There are no guarantees once "man" has mingled in the natural world.

Just sayin..


Greg

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Thank you all for the last few posts, and I am not even the original poster. Tina? It is good to keep certain "arguments" going, for new light may be shed at every turn. Some may think it odd for a self-acclaimed animal lover like myself to support an act of ophidiacide. I have done it with weak specimens (once emaciated from never having once eaten) that occur with every corn snake brood I have hatched. Those put down would have never made it in the wild (as a comparison only).

I do have to admit that the controversy in itself is NOT unjustified. It is a difficult question. Man has been interfering all along, and ultimately - there are no guarantees that no one else has goofed up, and it is possible that tainted lines are on the market already, perhaps even in the wild. My opinion is that we do not add to the problem. Nature may possibly dilute the accidental incursions one can only hope... but keep it up, and then there's definitely no hope.

I am still of the mind that this is all about trusting humans.

If it is not, and it only about saving something alive (esp. from our own undoing), then I can not take part of this conversation anymore. The logic stops here. I can't argue with blind compassion. It's blind!

In regards to inbreeding: I am a firm believer in regular outcrossing of captive-bred specimens. I can see how that may occasionally be a problem for non-North American keepers of Thamnophis. How often to European keepers get fresh stock?

If I were a Thamnophis breeder, I would reaffirm the stock with sympatric specimen types from different areas; that way you can keep the line consistent without too much inbreeding. If....

Unfortunately, I know too many breeders (in the U.S.) who don't know squat about genetics first of all, so who really knows what they are spitting out; I know countless pet shops here that do not subscribe to all the fish and game laws, and thus there are no official records there either....

To tell you the truth, to heck with it! Man has done way too much damage already. This planet is screwed anyways, DON'T LISTEN! Do what you want. Most people don't listen anyways.....

Tired of making sense,

Steven

P.S. Drache, It helps to know that there may be an intergrade zone between the two; my fault for not researching this further (darn West Coast people!). This alone may mute the whole thread!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

lets pose this one question then........how can we all guarantee that the garters that we buy in pet shops are not in fact those who come from a dirty gene pool?
just becasue they look like a certain breed and act like a certain breed does not mean that they are not a mixed breed that just happens to have reverted to an ancestors looks.
the simple fact here is that we as a human race have persistantly played god with animals gene pool its enviroment and its life.......in every case the animal has paid the price. as previously stated in europe we dont have these garters naturally and if one breeder had a lot escape then you are not only going to get mixed breed garters roaming free, they are going to be roaming free in an alien habitat.
breeding is something everyone thinks they should be able to do with their own rules,
and if accidents happen, the animal suffers. if the litter/clutch doesnt turn out right then its the animal that suffers.
wheres the justice in this? the mixed breed clutch should be rehomed, maybe theres a sanctuary that can take them, maybe you have to hope that SOME people can be trusted, maybe you want toplay god and decide who should live and who should die, but my opinion is these are living creatures and they do deserve a chance

My key issue with this post is "you have to hope that SOME people can be trusted." Look at the world we live in. You said "SOME." This controversy requires ALL to be trusted. I can hope. I can dream. That won't make it a reality!

[drache]

P.S. Drache, It helps to know that there may be an intergrade zone between the two; my fault for not researching this further (darn West Coast people!). This alone may mute the whole thread!

Steven
I have no idea whether there are intergrades in nature - just that there are overlapping areas of accurrance
my assumption is that, if accidents happen in captivity, it's quite possible that they happen in nature
they are both sirtalis species after all

[gregmonsta]

Just sayin..


Greg

I know mate I've been enjoying this thread because it's so full of differing opinions. I love to throw tangents in every now and again. Anyway, when it comes down to it I don't ever plan to breed anything other than same subspecies couples (which I hope to mix up with unrelated breeders as and when possible).
But .... essentially I think those flaming babies are cute as Hell and the colour is so striking. I'd love to have one and do believe that there should be no problem keeping it as a stand alone 'look at the flame on this' pet.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Steven
I have no idea whether there are intergrades in nature - just that there are overlapping areas of accurrance
my assumption is that, if accidents happen in captivity, it's quite possible that they happen in nature
they are both sirtalis species after all

Intergrades DO occur, especially in NW California. Hope to see some today. (Huh?)

I'm gone for 4 days in the redwoods camping.

Ciao