Garter Hybridization

[Stefan-A]

He must be, because I didn't need to have it translated.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

then I guess I speak finnish too cause I could read it

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hello again...

Other than the various mitochondrial DNA comparisons shown in Rossman, Ford, and Seigel's The Garter Snakes, there have been additional local studies done in the cladistic relationships between our local species (especially the Klamath region (S. Oregon, N. California)). Some DNA samples showed the possibility of T. ordinoides being an older morphotype of the Thamnophis genus, being closely related to the common ancestors of both the T. elegans and T. atratus complexes. Northwesterns are small, virtually fossorial. Despite their many variations in color and pattern and the way these are often very similar to other Thamnophis species, I currently do not suspect that ordinoides is necessarily hybridizing. They're just so small, and there is little key comparable evidence for such an assumption. My first choice is T. sirtalis fitchi or infernalis X T. elegans terrestris; my second is T. atratus hydrophilus X T. elegans elegans. This may all be pure nonsense, for I do also believe that Nature has a way of smacking us in the face with "You thought what? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Haaaaa!" I believe these snakes are constantly evolving, possibly reinventing themselves along the way by mixing compatible genetics. As I do not agree with intentional hybridization of different species for the pet trade (esp. in the case where this act causes sterility or defects), I do believe hybrid tests should be run to determine the reality of these species' relationships with one another in the wild. As I said we have many overlapping species ranges here in NW CA. The possibilities are endless! I am beginning to suspect that the continuous ignorance of species definition (What is a species?) may actually be a protective act; if multiple species were realized as one species (with multiple races), then afforded protection might be stripped - as in "There's plenty of them there snakes over there, let's log over here!"
The tension b/n loggers and environmentalists is still quite polarized up here. Anyways, enough with all the conjecture!

I am new to keeping garters as household guests. I have been a corn snake guy for years. Anyways, will keep you all up to date if I learn anything new.

Thanks and good night!

Steven

P.S. Lefty ate 2 pieces of raw trout out of my hand today (He's my WC avatar!)

[adamanteus]

Conjecture indeed, but fascinating conjecture never the less. I guess we will never really know which 'recognised' forms have come together to make a wild hybrid, without DNA sampling.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yes, but if I engaged in some captive breeding, I could probably find out within 3 years whether or not some hybrids are possible and whether or not the offspring are fertile. No DNA testing required providing I have clean-cut specimens of each of the local spercies. I guess that means more snakes..... I have room here somewhere... LOL!

[Zephyr]

Yes, but if I engaged in some captive breeding, I could probably find out within 3 years whether or not some hybrids are possible and whether or not the offspring are fertile. No DNA testing required providing I have clean-cut specimens of each of the local spercies. I guess that means more snakes..... I have room here somewhere... LOL!

Ah, but what if your clean-cut local species are in fact hybrids? :P

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Ah, but what if your clean-cut local species are in fact hybrids? :P

Ah! The ecstasy of chaos! At that point I will truly scream. But first, well, there is no way to tell without the mitochondrial journey.

Theoretically (HA!): If a male hybrid and a female hybrid (both same kinds of hybrids - let's say they are both 1/2 terrestris and 1/2 infernalis)... if they mate, and produce live babies, then WALAH! PRESTO! We need to redefine the both species! If the breeding male is shooting blanks, well then we have your typical hybrid were there is partial (male) or total sterility (How could you tell which, other than try the female with a backcross to another male from either species?).

All I want right now is to do a simple inter-special cross with 2 "classic" locality types, and see what I get. Unfortunately, that's a few classes away before I can get special permission from HSU and CA Fish and Game.
Breeding native garters is prohibited.

Thanks for tuning in,

Steve