Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

[suzoo]

Two more cents to spend as you choose... Rossman et al. recommend counting the dorsal scales beginning with the 10th one in front of (anterior to) the vent since the number of dorsal scales can vary within a single subspecies and even on the same individual, between the vent and the neck.

OK, so I count again. My only adult male Gerby, but guess what, I only got nine counting the top one...now what??? Is he a different sub? He is not a ribbon, but much longer and thinner than the girls, resembling a ribbon, but not THAT long and narrow.

[GarterGuy]

Like Rick (Cazador) had said, you can have some variance between individuals and especially with males, that tend to be smaller and more slender then females, this might be possible. That's also why you can use the other characteristics like placement of the side stripe, spots below the side stripe....number of labials, ect. to make a positive ID. If your count was correct, this would give you a scale count of 17, which doesn't correspond to any of the Thamnophis species that are found in your area. Even ribbons, by the book, have a scale count of 19. The only ones with 17 are T.ordinoides and T.brachystoma...ones a west coast garter, the other an east coast one.

[suzoo]

OK, This time I took Gerby(the male) out of the tank, and counted very carefully and came up with 19 total. I even tried to get some good shots with the camera, but either my camera's not that good, or I'm not a very good photographer(OK both lol), but then I took Gracie out and counted hers, and she had 21 total. I took pics of her too, which I will post in the photo gallery, as they were very funny, she was more interested in the camera than letting me take her picture! So I'm pretty possitive they are all T. Radix, and my male is just weird. lol

[KITKAT]

Could we combine the photo in this message with the drawing posted elsewhere by Amandantus (sp?), and put it in an Article for easy reference every time this question comes up?

KITKAT

Start at the big ventral scales and call them scale row 0. Then move up the side at a 45 degree angle. Count anywhere that isn't too close to the head or behind the cloaca.



Edit: I should be a bit more observant, he meant counting the dorsal scale rows (circumference).

[Cazador]

The wheels are already turning because of your prior suggestion .
Rick

[adamanteus]

Start at the big ventral scales and call them scale row 0. Then move up the side at a 45 degree angle. Count anywhere that isn't too close to the head or behind the cloaca.



Edit: I should be a bit more observant, he meant counting the dorsal scale rows (circumference).

Best to do the count well forward of the cloaca, as scale rows diminish in number toward the vent. Mid-body is always favourite.

James.