The Thiaminase Debate

[adamanteus]

I think Don has raised a very good point there, reinforced by KITKATs story....
Maybe thiaminase is more harmful to juveniles than it is to adults. When I think back now, I only remember juvenile snakes, raised on the wrong kind of fish, suffering any symptoms. Maybe that's a dangerous supposition, I certainly don't want to be the one to research it!

Excellent topic by the way, Kyle.... and well presented.

[KITKAT]

I have taken the thiaminase free list that is provided in our own thamnophis.com wiki article, and have added the following section:

QUICK REFERENCE TO COMMON SAFE SPECIES OF FISH
The following fish appear on the list linked above in this article. I have selected according to the following criteria... tested thiaminase free using whole body testing only, commercially available or available by angling, species with which I am familiar. So this is a PARTIAL list.

Bass (Largemouth), Bass (Smallmouth), Bluegill, Chub, Crappie, Herring, Mackerel, Pike (Northern), Pumpkinseed, Salmon (Coho), Trout (Brown), Trout (Rainbow), Whiting.

Added by KITKAT

Retrieved from "http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets...tle=Thiamin%2C"

I think I can put my fishing license to good use this summer, since bluegill are common and easy to catch in waters around my house!

[gregmonsta]

I'm not sure but, in the wild, would a diet of goldfish and frogs not balance out ... I thought I read somewhere that frogs had quite a good vitamin content - also would the thiaminase containing fish carry a more substantial 'gutload' of vitamins in the wild? ... I use a constant trace of vitamins in my water at home and have never had a problem even when I had my ribbons who would get Goldfish once a month or so and were mostly fed cod or haddock (boiled for 5mins) at the time.

[Zephyr]

Today, in Honor's Chemistry, we began studying the amine group of carbons.
From what I understand, THIS is the story of thiamine.
The snake swallows the fish *let's use goldfish for example,* and as its being digested, the cells rupture in the fish, allowing the protein in the fish's cells to be turned into thiamine, which the snake would in turn use for muscle growth, seeing as the amines are basically broken down proteins. However, the thiaminase present in the goldfishs cells decomposes the thiamine into smaller pieces that CANNOT be re-formed into proteins by the snake.
So, the reason why the young snakes would be affected by thiaminase the most is because they are growing and the muscles need protein, seeing as they are made of protein. The muscle convulsions before death would be from the muscles attempting to do normal activities without protein.

So, I conclude that this would mean, if you were using a diet entirely of goldfish, you'd have to feed the snake almost daily to make sure it was getting proper protein, but this is, obviously, untested.
If rosies have less thiaminase than goldfish, then it is safe to say that, once again, a varied diet would be suitable if rosies are a staple. It may actually be safe to feed goldfish to adult garter snakes, seeing as their body isn't growing as much as a baby snakes would be. This would also explain sschind's story.

[Zephyr]

Also, on the topic of warmwater and saltwater fish used as feeders, my concern with these is that they are from different environments and could carry deadly pathogens that the garters aren't used to. A similar example would be introducing goldfish to a warmwater aquarium or, the Europeans coming to the Americas. *Smallpox, people!* :P

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i asked a couple people including gartersnake.info and they said platies were fine

Also, on the topic of warmwater and saltwater fish used as feeders, my concern with these is that they are from different environments and could carry deadly pathogens that the garters aren't used to. A similar example would be introducing goldfish to a warmwater aquarium or, the Europeans coming to the Americas. *Smallpox, people!* :P

[Lori P]

Kyle, you are a wealth of info! I have nothing to add, just reading and trying to learn... but I agree that variety is the key, from all we've gathered. That one article I read is supported by what you said above... that the cells rupture quickly in dead fish and so they recommended not feeding previously killed or frozen/thawed fish to garters that are known to carry thiaminase as the level would be higher. But it also said that gut loading the fish with vitamin/mineral rich foods offset the effects. Interesting stuff, all of it...

[GarterGuy]

As far as adult snakes not being affected by thiaminase, I unfortunately had first hand experiance that this is not true. My first garter (a Manitoba T.s.parietalis) was fed a diet consisting of mostly goldfish and other thiaminase containing frozen fish (I think I used smelt). She lived for 9.5yrs.....but met her end very badly with convulsions and total lack of neuromuscular control. I agree that it does probably affect younger snakes fast, just simply because they are in an excellerated state of growth and developement...but adults are not immune to it and over time they can suffer the same devestating affects.
One thing that worries me, is that it almost seem like we're trying to make excuses to feed thiaminase containing fish, maybe due to the fact that they are so readily available, rather then putting a bit more effort in and making sure that are snakes are provided with the best possible diets. I know some snakes will accept little else then fish or even live fish, but I think we still have to make it an effort to provide them with species that possibly won't cause them any problems. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be safe then sorry and I wouldn't want to put another snake through the horror of what I know thiaminase poisoning can do.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'm not trying to make excuses to use goldfish....I haven't fed goldfish for a number of years...basically since I found out on the internet about the thiaminase problems (and just started breeding and raising them seriously). I feed them a variety also....rodents, fish, worms, and occasional slugs.

[drache]

the problem with the varied diet thing is that very few of my garters actually have a varied palate, and this is particularly true for the babies - most of them have a very strong preference, and when they're babies, I'll feed them what they'll eat
I don't offer them harmful foods though, except as a last resort
by sheer luck perhaps, I managed to get all of my current babies interested in healthy f/t foods
in the past I've raised some babies exclusively on minnows, until they were big enough to take an entire scented pinkie, and they were fine too - still are in fact