puget sounds *pics*

[Thamnophis]

Wow Marian, whatever species it is... they are very beautiful!!!

[GarterGuy]

thanks ... yes, I think everyone got these from *bob* either directly or indirectly, lol ) Please tell me more about the scale count for both sub-species ... I have never done this before. I do really like these regardless but I would like to know which they are. I have kept quite a few garter sub-species over the years and these are very close to the Similis in regards to their blue.

much thanks for sharing !!
marian

OK, from what we all determined with the last Puget vs Ordiniodes........T.ordiniodes have 7-8 upper labials, 8 lower labials, internasals that are equal to or shorter then the prefrontals and have 17 scale rows
T.s.pickeringii has 7-8 upper labials, 10 lower labials, and 19 scale rows
Check out this site....has all the stats...really cool! (Key to California Gartersnakes).

So far the snakes that we've been getting from "Bob" have been the T.ordiniodes and not the T.s.pickeringii

[mikm]

thank you for the info GG !! the link to the site you provided is VERY cool indeed ...

m'

[GarterGuy]

Can't take all the credit, Rick (aka: Cazador) is the one who originally posted it while we were trying to ID our blue garters from the infamous "Bob".

[snakeman]

I go by the head shape also northwesterns don't get very big.Plus I have never seen a blue phase northwestern look anything like that.The northwesterns I know do not have that much contrast.most you can barely see the lateral stripe.

[snakeman]

I looked at the cali website.If you go by those pics who knows what you got.Most I have seen the head is not bigger than the neck.

[Cazador]

Thanks snakeman. These seem to be getting more and more popular and are turning up all over the place. I had one male with a very short and blunt head and a female with a long, thin head. They arrived in the same delivery. Strange. I just suspected that the male was born with an abnormally small head, but now I think there may have been more to it. I don't think this will be the last of this issue. I also have some dead ones in the freezer that I can do tooth counts on and perhaps use Rossman et. al's (1991) key to further break them apart. More to follow, I suppose.
Rick

[garterking]

You didn't happen to get them from a guy named Bob did you? If so, you might want to do some scale counts on them. He was selling T.s.pickeringii "blue phase", but what they really were, were blue phase T.ordinoides. Very nice looking snakes either way and glad to hear they're doing well.
---Roy

Happy to hear they are doing so well. I too contacted Bob about getting a couple but after I read the horror stories here, decided against getting them. Maybe they were just a troubled clutch to begin with, and no matter how good their care was wouldn't have mattered.

This has again peaked my interest in buying a couple. Are there more positive stories out there?? They really are beautiful snakes.

[KITKAT]

One of my adults is eating and looks healthy. The other adult is not eating, but I can find nothing wrong.

[suzoo]

Mikm,
Excellent pic.s of your girls! They are all beautiful snakes!!
Suzoo