Checkered Garters Attempting to Mate?

[guidofatherof5]

The second snake sure looks female to me. Was #1 courting #2?

[kcl]

The second snake sure looks female to me. Was #1 courting #2?

I think so. I'll take more pictures tonight to make sure that I didn't swap them. But first I'll be going to the store to pick up another tank...

[kcl]

Also, additional information in case it helps people help me. Again, thank you all for the help!

Both snakes are overweight (less than they used to be - I'm working on it). Snake #1, named Relius if I kept them straight correctly, who courted the other, is the fatter snake. They both appear to be the same overall length. I've circled the vent in a picture of each snake in case it helps.

Snake 1>Capture.jpgCapture2.jpg<Snake 2

[kcl]

IMG_5427.JPGIMG_5428.JPG Snake #1 (Relius) - This is the courting snake

IMG_5429.JPGIMG_5430.JPGSnake #2 (Hazama) - Snake that was courted

Does #2 look female still? Thanks!!

[guidofatherof5]

Both are males in my opinion. There is too much girth after the vent/cloaca on #2. I think the big clue to what was going is the fact snake #2 had just shed. Just a pheromone confusion caused by the shedding.

[kcl]

Thanks so much!! That's what I thought personally

[Albert Clark]

I agree that they both appear to be males. The rounded shape of the area beyond the cloacal / anal plate scale is the hemipenes. I agree with Steve. Remember, in the wild (garter) snakes really only come together to hibernate and then to breed. They really do better with their own spaces for the most part. Of course there are times when their paths may cross in the wild but that is infrequent. Even newly born scrubs are independent and go their own separate ways after birth.

[kcl]

These guys are my only snakes housed communally. They have lots of space (and were going to be upgraded soon) and extra hides. This was the first real instance I have seen of either of them exhibiting dominance behavior - which actually was what I originally was trying to get feedback on before I got sidetracked by re-verifying their gender. I have read studies that give evidence of some sociality in thamnophis species outside of hibernation and mating including kin recognition, individual recognition, preferentially going to hiding areas with the scent of conspecifics when other species given the same test with the same conditions preferentially avoided hiding areas with the scents of conspecifics, allowing conspecifics to share hunting areas near the water while aggressively chasing individuals of other garter species to further territory, and more, which is a large part of why I originally chose to house these two together. (Rattlesnakes, particularly pygmy rattlesnakes, are the other snakes that I've seen studies evidencing some social behavior for as well as maternal care interestingly). I am keeping an eye on them currently and considering whether or not I should separate them and am open to input. They stopped the behavior for a day and as of this morning had begun again, but had switched roles.

[Albert Clark]

I keep all my animals separated unless I am pairing them up. I will house hatchlings together until they start putting on size and I deem them ready for their own space. Certainly communal housing is practiced by many and is a personal choice. Social behavior in snakes is sometimes bordered on anthropomorphism but yes the studies are out there. Even during brumation the animals can be housed together as that is more natural for them.

[kcl]

I do try very hard to avoid anthropomorphism while watching them for signs of stress (i.e. "snuggling" is usually competition for the preferred spot even if we think it looks cute). It's a very easy trap to fall into unfortunately and I don't want to harm them for my benefit.