Feeder Fish

[SourceAll]

Awesome, thanks for posting that as I'm definitely interested in what experienced keepers are feeding their snakes.

You just reminded me of something I keep forgetting to bring up... You said some fish are parasite diminished not parasite free. So, when I got back into keeping herps about 5 years ago I purchased a Woma python from a top breeder and he told me to only feed frozen rodents as live can have parasites. I haven't heard anyone mention parasites in mice in the garter world. Do you know this to be true or have you heard this?

Also, I have to say, that I hate that pinkies are considered a perfect staple and that you don't need to feed them anything else (according to the 2 care sheets I read on this site) One of the reasons I started looking into garters is to avoid mice

Any other advice for a new keeper or snake recommendations?

YW. Actually, no. I feed f/t pink rats as a staple to my garters with the switch t o hairless hoppers in the appropriate size. I do intersperse with f/t frog legs and f/t silverides. I will scent cut nightcrawlers and pink mice with fish for picky hatchlings or even picky youngsters. That scenting usually works. On another note, even though you are considering live fish as a staple the safety of thiaminase free doesn't mean you are parasite free. Probably parasite diminished.

[Albert Clark]

Live fish all have parasites. What you do by raising them at home in a controlled setting will keep the parasite load to a minimum. That's what you want as opposed to pet store, big box store aquarium fish. Their fish live in overcrowded aquariums, less than clean water, and poor filtration systems, all of which contribute to HIGH parasite loads which will get the reptile in trouble. Snakes thrive with small numbers of parasites, Protozoa, and bacteria. When those numbers increase and or multiply and become HIGH is when the animals get sick.

[SourceAll]

Thanks Albert, that definitely clears a lot up. The idea of "trying" to keep fish completely parasite free seemed like a huge pain in the ***.

Live fish all have parasites. What you do by raising them at home in a controlled setting will keep the parasite load to a minimum. That's what you want as opposed to pet store, big box store aquarium fish. Their fish live in overcrowded aquariums, less than clean water, and poor filtration systems, all of which contribute to HIGH parasite loads which will get the reptile in trouble. Snakes thrive with small numbers of parasites, Protozoa, and bacteria. When those numbers increase and or multiply and become HIGH is when the animals get sick.

[Tommytradix]

I would avoid live fish altogether as everyone before me has said. I also think pinkies are not a complete diet due to low to no calcium. I feed mainly rodents with the occasional Silversides/nightcrawlers and give a 50/50 calcium plus multivitamin mix 2-3 times a month.
I'm in the process of experimenting with breeding gambusia and treating them for parasites to see if it can be done and will be feeding 3 garters them twice a week along with pinks.

As for a recommendation for a garter. Imo radix have the calmest demeanor and best personality. Concinnus are another sure bet cause they do alot of basking and barely use hides that are provided so you will see them alot more than other garters.

[Albert Clark]

Awesome, thanks for posting that as I'm definitely interested in what experienced keepers are feeding their snakes.

You just reminded me of something I keep forgetting to bring up... You said some fish are parasite diminished not parasite free. So, when I got back into keeping herps about 5 years ago I purchased a Woma python from a top breeder and he told me to only feed frozen rodents as live can have parasites. I haven't heard anyone mention parasites in mice in the garter world. Do you know this to be true or have you heard this?

Also, I have to say, that I hate that pinkies are considered a perfect staple and that you don't need to feed them anything else (according to the 2 care sheets I read on this site) One of the reasons I started looking into garters is to avoid mice

Any other advice for a new keeper or snake recommendations?

They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

[guidofatherof5]

They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

Need a citation on that 90% moister content Albert. I think that is a little high. So high I thought you were talking about night crawlers.

[Eddie]

I've had nothing good come from feeding fish. I only feed guppies to babies that will eat nothing else. Rodents are what I use 99% of the time

[Albert Clark]

Need a citation on that 90% moister content Albert. I think that is a little high. So high I thought you were talking about night crawlers.

Well, what percentage do you have the moisture at Steve? I would think it depends on which nutritional analysis reports you are looking at. Laboratories vary and their interpretations and results vary as well.

[guidofatherof5]

They certainly do vary, I've just never seen one at 90%. "The Mouse in Biomedical Research: Normative Biology, Husbandry, and Models" - 72-78%, I was more curious to see one stating 90%.

[Albert Clark]

Reptile industries has their analysis of pinky mice @ 80% moisture. There are labs that list them in the mid to high 80's. I will find the link and post it. The main thing is the op saw mice pinks listed as complete nutrition on a couple of care sheets. They are not. The fact is they are "mostly (90%) moisture" is the important thing.