The state of the thamnophis hobby

[AntTheDestroyer]

Hello,
I am wondering how the people who have been in the hobby for a long time feel about its current state? It seems that there has been some interesting changes that happened over the past year and it is hard to judge their true effects as a new member. First is the loss of Scott Fezler and a good number of his snakes. I think we all agree that the circumstances behind this are strange so there is no need to further discuss this, but what about the effect on the hobby? Second is what seems to be a marked jump in popularity of this genus of snakes. Looking back you can definitely see a jump in prices and number of breeders. Is this a good thing for the hobby? Is there a comparison to the ball python industry right before its boom? Just Curious what everyone thinks, plus this forum could use some more activity.

[d_virginiana]

I haven't been keeping up with the number of breeders/pricing/what they're offering lately because I'm not in a situation to breed them or get new snakes at the moment, but I don't think there's ever going to be a comparison between garters and BPs in the US.

I think there are a couple husbandry reasons for this; namely the more complicated diet, large space requirement for their size, and tendency to be jumpy or nippy compared to the more docile BPs. The main reason I think will keep garters from reaching that level of popularity and diversity is the fact that they're incredibly common all over the US. Most people who are interested in flashy 'show-off' type animals (as it seems many of the people who get BPs are; not dedicated hobbyists and breeders, but the people who see a pretty snake and decide they want one) aren't going to shell out big money for an animal they see crawling around their back yard every day, even if it does have nicer colors. Garters' size isn't even impressive, and a lot of people prefer working with larger animals.

[Taso]

I don't think there's ever going to be a comparison between garters and BPs in the US.

I agree with everything Lora said, especially that part.
Also, now that Scott's breeders have been spread out, I think the hobby as a whole is up for a variety of upgrades.
When I first got into the hobby, there wasn't really a "facebook group" for garters. So, communication is definitely improving.

[Dan72]

As Beth mentioned Scott's group is spread out and mostly to individuals that I believe are planning to continue to breed. So no real loss there, hopefully. Garters as anyone that keeps them knows are work, more so than most species. Fast metabolism equals more feeding which means more poo & spot cleaning. What out ways all that in my opinion is that for a snake you're going to enter act with that often, their inquisitiveness and active personality trumps all possible negatives. Their are people spreading the word which is great! Facebook definitely helps. Like anything demand will always determine price. Thousand dollar garters? No. But I see nothing wrong with prices climbing and I think in some cases can go higher and be okay. I think the hobby is hotter and getting some recognition, all good. I think the breeders we have won't be enough to fill demand and that's ok too. Keep em wanting more.

[joeysgreen]

I see garters are continuing to move away from "wild and worthless" to mainstream captives, where they are true pets that are worth more than the purchase price, whatever that may be.

[Eddie]

I have been keeping and breeding garters for a long time. The very first albino that I ever had available to me was 32 years ago. It was an eastern that was found in upstate NY. The guy wanted $200 for it and I only got to see it from a crappy picture. I never ended up with it but that did help keep my interest in garters for many years. The use of computers in the last 15 years put morph possibilities and availability to anyone that wants to give breeding a shot. I like the fact that more and more people are keeping and breeding garters. Garters can be tough to keep up with especially if you are keeping multiple snakes and multiple species. I keep anywhere from 80-500 garters at a time depending on birth rates. I never really tried to market them as a business. I try to use what I produce to cover food costs and trade for other morphs. As far as changes in the last year the big one is the loss of Scott in the hobby. He really did know his stuff and was excellent at breeding. I wish all new comers good luck and keep up the good work.
Ed

[AntTheDestroyer]

Just playing devils advocate but is no one concerned with problems that come with popularity in the hobby? For example not knowing the condition your offspring are being put into, or those who are only concerned with making a profit on these animals. I guess it is wishful thinking hope that certain things will never change, or that when they do they will only change in a way you see fit. Even though I find ball pythons and all the morphs incredibly fascinating from a genetic point of view, I don't know if I would fit into to the ball python community as a whole for the reasons some of you laid out.

[Dan72]

Ant I'm not sure I follow what your point is. I think most people that purchase garters want a pet. Stop at one or two, maybe three and call it good with no interest in breeding them. Nobody jumps in to garters to make a fast buck and clean up, it just doesn't work that way. Mainly because if that is your attitude or thinking that person is going to learn quickly that there is too much commitment (work) involved to make that happen for someone that is not in it for the love of the animal. Garters seeing a rise in popularity I believe just means more people looking for a cool pet once the word has gotten to them that garters rock. The other thing about the garter community that everyone is on the same page with is, no hybrids. The community doesn't want them and that helps keep everything pure, you know what you're getting. Any animal that is worked with because dollars are the ultimate end game, they don't last. Breeders do what they do for the love of the animals they keep and if money happens to come with that then so be it. But I think most would agree what is sold in a season keeps everything going for the year and to see the next season come.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Dan, I definitely agree that the current long time breeders I have had interaction fit to your description of the awesome community you describe. This is part of the reason I have been interested in the hobby. My point is if there is enough demand to increase the price of certain morphs, then there could be enough draw to increase the likelihood of greedy breeders as you see in ball pythons. I could certainly be wrong in my assumption, but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts. I certainly hope these breeders will not succeed but that certainly does not mean they do not try at the expense of the animals. The ball python community is most definitely on same page at large about the hybrid issue, but I think they have the advantage that there is not really a species so similar to a ball python than many of the garters are. I just worry as garters become more popular that because understanding different species is not so easy as many snakes that hybrids will pop up with little recognition than by those with experience, which is a relatively small group. A similar thing happened with corn snakes with creamsicle/rootbeer and possibly tessera morphs. Could a breeder say they want a certain morph of one species that exists in another similar species and cross the two? I think now with few breeders and people serious about morphs it is fairly certain to track, but with more and more joining this becomes proportionately harder. At the end of the day there is not much a person can do to stop such changes, but I think it is interesting to discuss it.

[joeysgreen]

Ant, my take on it is that the more people added to any group will increase the odds of a bad apple, which may lead to more rotten fruit... but overall, popularity doesn't lead to that group's downfall.
From a differing point of view, while we are discussing the garter snake keeping hobby as a separate facet, it is still part of a dynamic, growing reptile keeping hobby that is experiencing growing pains. Everyone is learning from what happened with ball pythons.

Ian