Discussing "Co-Allelic" recessives in T.Radix

[Jeff B]

this is what ive been told by Doug Wenzell(the guy who found them)...out of the wild he bred axanthic to normal and got hets. he bred axanthic to anery and got all axanthics...he bred the axanthics back to each other and then got both axanthics and aneries cuz the axanthics were het anery.

These breeding results are classic co-allelic pattern of two recessive alleles of the same gene. Axanthic (blue green -lets say we denote as "aa") and Anery (black and silver-lets denote "nn") are co-allelic, the same way that Candy and Albino are in ball pythons. A snake with two copies of the axanthic gene "aa" is blue green with lime dorsal phenotype, a snake with one copy axanthic and one copy anery "an" is blue and black phenotype, and a snake with two copies anery "nn" is the black and silver phenotype. I have been saying this for years. I think you realize this too, but the misnomer is just in how you say it as axanthic het anery. I think we are one the same page, we just don't speak the same language, but we both mean "an"
I agree with you that Scott was breeding visual axanthics to normal looking snakes that were either het for axanthic or het for anery, either way the resulting offspring from that breeding would result in 50% axanthics and the other 50% that were phenotypically normal and he was mistakenly assuming that was a co-dom result. When in fact what he was doing is just like if someone was breeding a candy ball python to a het albino- half the babies would come out looking like the candy parent and half would be normal, so one might think gee this must be a co-dom, when in fact it is just two recessive genes that are co-allelic.
I think the other thing that has muddied the water was the lack of recognition in the difference between the lighters blue green axanthics and the darker blue ones, which I believe are "aa" and "an" respectively.

[AntTheDestroyer]

I have a pretty good grasp on what im talking about and im sharing that with others. that's what we are here for

you seem to think my passion is ignorance...ITS NOT

I didn't mean to imply any such thing. Based on conversations we've had previously I thought you wouldn't agree with me about naming the lines.

[BUSHSNAKE]

These breeding results are classic co-allelic pattern of two recessive alleles of the same gene. Axanthic (blue green -lets say we denote as "aa") and Anery (black and silver-lets denote "nn") are co-allelic, the same way that Candy and Albino are in ball pythons. A snake with two copies of the axanthic gene "aa" is blue green with lime dorsal phenotype, a snake with one copy axanthic and one copy anery "an" is blue and black phenotype, and a snake with two copies anery "nn" is the black and silver phenotype. I have been saying this for years. I think you realize this too, but the misnomer is just in how you say it as axanthic het anery. I think we are one the same page, we just don't speak the same language, but we both mean "an"
I agree with you that Scott was breeding visual axanthics to normal looking snakes that were either het for axanthic or het for anery, either way the resulting offspring from that breeding would result in 50% axanthics and the other 50% that were phenotypically normal and he was mistakenly assuming that was a co-dom result. When in fact what he was doing is just like if someone was breeding a candy ball python to a het albino- half the babies would come out looking like the candy parent and half would be normal, so one might think gee this must be a co-dom, when in fact it is just two recessive genes that are co-allelic.
I think the other thing that has muddied the water was the lack of recognition in the difference between the lighters blue green axanthics and the darker blue ones, which I believe are "aa" and "an" respectively.

we are on the same page, we do speak the same language, I just keep it simple.
I think the lighter and darker axanthics are just natural variations (im not attacking you, im just giving you my thoughts and its ok if you disagree, its nothing personal)I just think that the dominate black pigment of the anery would dominate over the blue pigment so an appearance of "an" genotype would just be black. Good conversation tho!!

[Tommytradix]

blue sirtalis

[Taso]

I present to you, with a GIANT SHRUG of uncertainty, an updated spreadsheet.
The link address should not have changed, but here it is anyway:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...=0&single=true

It includes a cleaned up version of what I had before, with the addition of examples based on what Jeff B. was talking about.

Hope I got something right.

If not, help me make it better!

[Taso]

Also, to add:
I'm aware that all of that could be completely incorrect. More actual breeding trials are needed to help determine anything here.
I just wanted to do a thing. I'm innocent.

[paulh]

>Is there a way to represent a Normal phenotype, that is het for both Axanthic and Anerythristic? Would it be a realistic scenario?

Short answer is no. A gene pair containing an a mutant gene and an n mutant gene would be an and would be blue axanthic, according to the chart. The only way to have such a normal looking snake would be to have two heterozygous gene pairs -- W/n and W/a.

By the way, may I suggest using the + character for the wildtype (normal) allele? That is the internationally recognized symbol used by the pro geneticists. And a / character can separate the two alleles in a gene pair. It took me a while to realize that an was two alleles rather than one.

And if a/n, n/n and a/a snakes can be distinguished, then a and n are recessive to the wild type allele and codominant to each other. Assuming that a and n are alleles.

[Taso]

>By the way, may I suggest using the + character for the wildtype (normal) allele? That is the internationally recognized symbol used by the pro geneticists. And a / character can separate the two alleles in a gene pair. It took me a while to realize that an was two alleles rather than one.

And if a/n, n/n and a/a snakes can be distinguished, then a and n are recessive to the wild type allele and codominant to each other. Assuming that a and n are alleles.

I added in the + characters to replace the W for wild types. I'm going to leave it alone for the second set because "normal" in that section refers to non-blue, instead of wild type.

But I'm not sure what you mean by the / characters. Could you explain in more detail?

[paulh]

Thanks for using the + character for wild type. It was unexpected but much appreciated.

Using a / character is for better readability, particularly with multiple gene pairs with more than one letter in a gene's symbol. Example genotype: +ivpipiTa+. It takes a bit of studying to figure out how many gene pairs are in that genotype and the genes in each pair. The genotype is more readable if the gene pairs are separated by spaces and the two alleles in a gene pair are separated by a / character -- +/iv pi/pi Ta/+. Using a / character is often not necessary with only one gene pair, but it's a helpful habit to develop.

Here is a suggestion that may save time when making future Punnett squares. In the blue (a/n) x silver (n/n) mating, the silver has two copies of the n allele. Which means that all of its sperm or eggs are the same; all have an n allele. And the second row in the 2x2 Punnett square is a copy of the first row. Using just one row for the n allele produces a 1x2 Punnett rectangle. The rectangle produces the same result as the 2x2 square but does not require adding like genotypes together.

I've been looking at the Punnett square spreadsheet. It looks to me that if axanthic and anerythristic follow the eye color model in an early reference, then the genotypes/phenotypes would be as follows:
AA BB produces normal phenotype
AA Bb produces normal phenotype
AA bb produces normal phenotype
Aa BB produces normal phenotype
Aa Bb produces normal phenotype
Aa bb produces normal phenotype
aa BB produces axanthic phenotype
aa Bb produces axanthic phenotype
aa bb produces anerythristic phenotype

On the other hand, if aa BB produces axanthic and AA bb produces anerythristic, then the genotypes and phenotypes would be as follows:
AA BB produces normal phenotype
AA Bb produces normal phenotype
AA bb produces anerythristic phenotype
Aa BB produces normal phenotype
Aa Bb produces normal phenotype
Aa bb produces anerythristic phenotype
aa BB produces axanthic phenotype
aa Bb produces axanthic phenotype
aa bb produces anerythristic phenotype (effect of bb masks effect of aa)

We need more breeding data.