Accidental Cross Breeding

[Tommytradix]

Okay, yes garters VERY occasionally interbreed in the wild where ranges overlap. This rarely happens, however. There are reasons for differentiation between species; in this case the reasons are primarily geographical and temporal (meaning that slight differences in timing of mating season and brumation could come into play keeping them separate in the wild as well).

It is a concern within the hobby, but also because basically anywhere in the continental US as well as parts of Canada, garters are native. Any escaped or released animals can interbreed with the wild ones in that area (even if they aren't native to it) contaminated the wild gene pool. I'm an ecologist, and that's really serious business that can cause negative effects in wild populations.

what are the negetive effects?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Okay, yes garters VERY occasionally interbreed in the wild where ranges overlap. This rarely happens, however. There are reasons for differentiation between species; in this case the reasons are primarily geographical and temporal (meaning that slight differences in timing of mating season and brumation could come into play keeping them separate in the wild as well).

It is a concern within the hobby, but also because basically anywhere in the continental US as well as parts of Canada, garters are native. Any escaped or released animals can interbreed with the wild ones in that area (even if they aren't native to it) contaminated the wild gene pool. I'm an ecologist, and that's really serious business that can cause negative effects in wild populations.

Then you should understand that keeping any garter snake that is not specific to your location is just as big a risk to native populations than a hybrid. I am not only talking about the right species but the locality as well. Unless you are breeding a specific locality to only other snakes of that locality with the intention of rereleasing them, then it comes down to entirely about personal preference. Even then if you are not collecting the animals yourself with enough experience to know the different species, then who knows what is in your bloodline.

If you are someone that prefers only "pure" blood snakes than you should probably be very careful who you purchase from. On the other hand I see no problem with someone being curious about hybrids and even breeding them as long as they are honest about it and are willing to deal with the offspring. Very few hybrids in my opinion are attractive so they may be difficult to sell.

[guidofatherof5]

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. I think"being curious" is a terrible reason to mess with genetics. Sure, it's easy to justify by saying the risk is the same when housing garters from different geographical locations but in reality it isn't. Purposely placing two snakes together that would never meet in the wild is irresponsible in my opinion, no matter who's doing it. We have been blessed to have such a diverse genus of snakes with naturally occurring morphs that producing hybrids is ridiculous. I mean no offense to anyone but feel very strongly about this issue.

[d_virginiana]

This is going to be a bit long, so I just wanted to be clear I'm not slamming the OP for an accidental breeding. Mistakes happen. I know people on this forum who have taken in hybrid babies before to keep them from being culled. As long as you make sure they go to responsible homes where people know what they've got and why they shouldn't be bred, I think that's absolutely an acceptable alternative to culling.

what are the negetive effects?

That's the crux of the issue; we don't really know. It could end up being harmless. Or it could end up introducing genes into the wild bloodlines that are deleterious to snakes living in that locale, maybe not immediately fatal (that would take care of the problem) but genes that could decrease the species' ability to thrive in the area incrementally. Something that makes them slightly more likely to be eaten or come in/out of brumation slightly too early/too late. That sort of thing could take generations to show up. With all the issues we have in America regarding invasive plant and animal species that no one thought would be harmful at the time of introduction, you can look at things like Kudzu plants, phragmites (it's a grass that's absolutely destroying many wetlands), flying carp, ect. to see how something like introducing a non-native species could potentially be very harmful.

Then you should understand that keeping any garter snake that is not specific to your location is just as big a risk to native populations than a hybrid. I am not only talking about the right species but the locality as well. Unless you are breeding a specific locality to only other snakes of that locality with the intention of rereleasing them, then it comes down to entirely about personal preference. Even then if you are not collecting the animals yourself with enough experience to know the different species, then who knows what is in your bloodline.

If you are someone that prefers only "pure" blood snakes than you should probably be very careful who you purchase from. On the other hand I see no problem with someone being curious about hybrids and even breeding them as long as they are honest about it and are willing to deal with the offspring. Very few hybrids in my opinion are attractive so they may be difficult to sell.

Keeping any garter non-specific to a location isn't just as dangerous as keeping hybrids. Hybrids are MUCH more likely to end up out in the wild than a non-hybrid. There are several reasons for this: Owners who know they have hybrid litters and try to rehome them honestly will generally have a very hard time doing so, ending with someone having more snakes than they can handle. If that person is irresponsible, the easiest solution is to just throw them out in the wild. Additionally, you will not be able to sell these hybrids at a very high price and generally no one active in the garter community wants them, and if you just look to the general public there is a much higher likelihood of them going to someone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't care, leading to either escapes or releases. There will always be irresponsible owners of any animal, but the conditions that surround hybrids make them much more likely candidates for release or escape than a responsibly bred garter.

Actually, I don't have to be very careful from who I purchase from if I want a non-hybrid snake. Being a somewhat niche hobby with little to gain financially, the garter community is primarily made up of people dedicated to these animals; and that includes not making hybrids. I refuse to buy a snake without seeing an image of the animal I'm receiving; there is no way I would end up with a hybrid unless someone sent me a fake picture because I would identify it immediately. And if I did somehow end up with one through dishonesty, I would also identify that immediately, never breed the animal, and let everyone in the community know not to buy from that seller. If hybrids flooded the hobby though, you'd end up with people who didn't realize what they had breeding and selling the offspring as the wrong thing.

I'm also somewhat active in the tarantula hobby, where it is MUCH harder to differentiate between species than it is when you're working with snakes. People being 'interested' in what hybrids would look like has created an absolute mess that the people who established the hobby are trying desperately to combat before it reaches the point that no one knows what they're getting (it's already reached that point at the pet store level).

Long story short; curiosity is a terrible reason to breed ANY animal. You're dealing with lives. Any time you breed, you need to be aware of how your actions affect others in the hobby as well as the animals themselves; in this case greatly decreasing their likelihood of going to good homes.

[liveunderoath]

This is going to be a bit long, so I just wanted to be clear I'm not slamming the OP for an accidental breeding. Mistakes happen. I know people on this forum who have taken in hybrid babies before to keep them from being culled. As long as you make sure they go to responsible homes where people know what they've got and why they shouldn't be bred, I think that's absolutely an acceptable alternative to culling.



That's the crux of the issue; we don't really know. It could end up being harmless. Or it could end up introducing genes into the wild bloodlines that are deleterious to snakes living in that locale, maybe not immediately fatal (that would take care of the problem) but genes that could decrease the species' ability to thrive in the area incrementally. Something that makes them slightly more likely to be eaten or come in/out of brumation slightly too early/too late. That sort of thing could take generations to show up. With all the issues we have in America regarding invasive plant and animal species that no one thought would be harmful at the time of introduction, you can look at things like Kudzu plants, phragmites (it's a grass that's absolutely destroying many wetlands), flying carp, ect. to see how something like introducing a non-native species could potentially be very harmful.



Keeping any garter non-specific to a location isn't just as dangerous as keeping hybrids. Hybrids are MUCH more likely to end up out in the wild than a non-hybrid. There are several reasons for this: Owners who know they have hybrid litters and try to rehome them honestly will generally have a very hard time doing so, ending with someone having more snakes than they can handle. If that person is irresponsible, the easiest solution is to just throw them out in the wild. Additionally, you will not be able to sell these hybrids at a very high price and generally no one active in the garter community wants them, and if you just look to the general public there is a much higher likelihood of them going to someone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't care, leading to either escapes or releases. There will always be irresponsible owners of any animal, but the conditions that surround hybrids make them much more likely candidates for release or escape than a responsibly bred garter.

Actually, I don't have to be very careful from who I purchase from if I want a non-hybrid snake. Being a somewhat niche hobby with little to gain financially, the garter community is primarily made up of people dedicated to these animals; and that includes not making hybrids. I refuse to buy a snake without seeing an image of the animal I'm receiving; there is no way I would end up with a hybrid unless someone sent me a fake picture because I would identify it immediately. And if I did somehow end up with one through dishonesty, I would also identify that immediately, never breed the animal, and let everyone in the community know not to buy from that seller. If hybrids flooded the hobby though, you'd end up with people who didn't realize what they had breeding and selling the offspring as the wrong thing.

I'm also somewhat active in the tarantula hobby, where it is MUCH harder to differentiate between species than it is when you're working with snakes. People being 'interested' in what hybrids would look like has created an absolute mess that the people who established the hobby are trying desperately to combat before it reaches the point that no one knows what they're getting (it's already reached that point at the pet store level).

Long story short; curiosity is a terrible reason to breed ANY animal. You're dealing with lives. Any time you breed, you need to be aware of how your actions affect others in the hobby as well as the animals themselves; in this case greatly decreasing their likelihood of going to good homes.

This makes a lot more sense than just saying it muddies the gene pool. Thank you.

[Tommytradix]

no hybrids is like garter law #1 lol

[guidofatherof5]

no hybrids is like garter law #1 lol

It certainly should be.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. I think"being curious" is a terrible reason to mess with genetics. Sure, it's easy to justify by saying the risk is the same when housing garters from different geographical locations but in reality it isn't. Purposely placing two snakes together that would never meet in the wild is irresponsible in my opinion, no matter who's doing it. We have been blessed to have such a diverse genus of snakes with naturally occurring morphs that producing hybrids is ridiculous. I mean no offense to anyone but feel very strongly about this issue.

Many people would say the same about the entire snake pet industry. Also the entire industry revolves around messing with genetics. Unfortunately there are risks involved in keeping any snake that is not from your locality. Your argument applies to all captive non locality snakes hybrids and not. It is absolutely the same to keep a snake that is capable of producing hybrids than to keep a hybrid itself. In the end if it escapes then you have hybrids in the wild regardless. In the case of the OP the if his babies escape and breed their offspring would be much closer to the wild type than if any one of your snakes did.

[AntTheDestroyer]

This is going to be a bit long, so I just wanted to be clear I'm not slamming the OP for an accidental breeding. Mistakes happen. I know people on this forum who have taken in hybrid babies before to keep them from being culled. As long as you make sure they go to responsible homes where people know what they've got and why they shouldn't be bred, I think that's absolutely an acceptable alternative to culling.



That's the crux of the issue; we don't really know. It could end up being harmless. Or it could end up introducing genes into the wild bloodlines that are deleterious to snakes living in that locale, maybe not immediately fatal (that would take care of the problem) but genes that could decrease the species' ability to thrive in the area incrementally. Something that makes them slightly more likely to be eaten or come in/out of brumation slightly too early/too late. That sort of thing could take generations to show up. With all the issues we have in America regarding invasive plant and animal species that no one thought would be harmful at the time of introduction, you can look at things like Kudzu plants, phragmites (it's a grass that's absolutely destroying many wetlands), flying carp, ect. to see how something like introducing a non-native species could potentially be very harmful.



Keeping any garter non-specific to a location isn't just as dangerous as keeping hybrids. Hybrids are MUCH more likely to end up out in the wild than a non-hybrid. There are several reasons for this: Owners who know they have hybrid litters and try to rehome them honestly will generally have a very hard time doing so, ending with someone having more snakes than they can handle. If that person is irresponsible, the easiest solution is to just throw them out in the wild. Additionally, you will not be able to sell these hybrids at a very high price and generally no one active in the garter community wants them, and if you just look to the general public there is a much higher likelihood of them going to someone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't care, leading to either escapes or releases. There will always be irresponsible owners of any animal, but the conditions that surround hybrids make them much more likely candidates for release or escape than a responsibly bred garter.

Actually, I don't have to be very careful from who I purchase from if I want a non-hybrid snake. Being a somewhat niche hobby with little to gain financially, the garter community is primarily made up of people dedicated to these animals; and that includes not making hybrids. I refuse to buy a snake without seeing an image of the animal I'm receiving; there is no way I would end up with a hybrid unless someone sent me a fake picture because I would identify it immediately. And if I did somehow end up with one through dishonesty, I would also identify that immediately, never breed the animal, and let everyone in the community know not to buy from that seller. If hybrids flooded the hobby though, you'd end up with people who didn't realize what they had breeding and selling the offspring as the wrong thing.

I'm also somewhat active in the tarantula hobby, where it is MUCH harder to differentiate between species than it is when you're working with snakes. People being 'interested' in what hybrids would look like has created an absolute mess that the people who established the hobby are trying desperately to combat before it reaches the point that no one knows what they're getting (it's already reached that point at the pet store level).

Long story short; curiosity is a terrible reason to breed ANY animal. You're dealing with lives. Any time you breed, you need to be aware of how your actions affect others in the hobby as well as the animals themselves; in this case greatly decreasing their likelihood of going to good homes.

Your argument is based entirely on a hypothetical situation that does not follow any real world case. The biggest problem wildlife are currently facing that stems from the pet snake industry has to do with a non native pure bred species.

Line breeding is far more detrimental to a population than creating hybrids due the build up of recessive negative traits. As a ecologist you should know that the most healthy thing you can do for a lineage is to add new genes to the pool.

I am not even saying I would like to own a garter hybrid, but just that it just a matter of opinion. I think you should keep to the truths about hybrids like that they are not desirable in the industry and you will not make money. Truthfully there is always a way to get rid of unwanted babies whether that be giving them away or finding someone with a snake eater. Your assumption that most people in the industry are interested in breeding snakes is simply wrong. For the record the only reason this whole community exists is because people start to breed snakes out of curiosity.

I agree that people need to know the risks of breeding hybrids, but I just don't think some think about the possible negative effects of owning snakes in general.

[d_virginiana]

I just... don't understand your argument. Can you come up with one positive to either the hobby or the snakes that would come from purposefully breeding hybrids? And unless someone is prepared to care for 30 babies their entire lives if things don't work out like they want, 'curiosity' is not an acceptable reason. I'm just not sure why you're trying so hard to defend the idea...

Also, I'm not stalking the forum, just an insomniac.

EDIT: Woah. Wrote this before you responded to mine. Can you name ONE example of a negative trait in captive garters that is caused by inbreeding/line breeding? Just ONE. Excluding the San Frans in Europe... that whole population comes from about 14 individuals and is not representative of any other captive garter species.
Genetic bottlenecks only become deleterious at FAR greater levels of inbreeding than what we see in the garter hobby. Any responsible breeder will outcross their lines every few generations to avoid passing on negative traits and refuse to breed garters that have negative traits. With the supply of wild and unrelated garters in the hobby the 'inbreeding' you're talking about is kind of nonexistent.

By the way, the scenario I proposed about a foreign species hybridizing with a local population and having potentially harmful effects is ENTIRELY plausible. No, I don't have a specific case study of hybrid garters to back that up, only common sense.

Also, when did I say everyone in the industry is interested in breeding snakes? You don't have to want to breed to end up with a litter of babies. How likely do you really think it is that someone who gets snakes for free (like what you suggested to get rid of the babies... which, by the way, is just not a responsible plan at all. It's treating the animals like they're completely worthless and likely dooming them to pretty horrible lives...) is going to be able to sex and separate them properly?