Breeding - ethics

[joeysgreen]

So the guy used a poor example; can't we discuss the topic at hand without the hissy fit?

I think while breeding for particular traits and aiming for healthy family lines is ideal, I'm frankly just happy that captive breeding of Thamnophis is more common now and hope that it replaces the all-to-common theft from the wild.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

I don't believe defending my project was a 'hissy fit', rather a natural reaction to a post that seemed to single me out unfairly as a target for mudslinging. But as I said I'm more than happy to discuss breeding ethics.

I agree that replacing theft from the wild is probably the biggest concern (in the Americas at least) facing breeders. Unrelated to Thamnophis, that's the reason that I plan to breed my Brachypelma smithi when he/she reaches maturity; breeding of that species is very common in Europe and South Africa, but the ability to harvest them from the wild has put them on the CITES list I could see that happening to some of the less common Thamnophis in the Americas.

The only situation I'm aware of in captive Thamnophis where trying to avoid undesirable traits from inbreeding is a major issue is with SanFrans in Europe (and the people on here I've seen doing it seem to do a remarkable job given the limited gene pool). In most other cases, I'd say it's down to using common sense. Don't breed deformed/sick animals, don't breed animals that you won't be able to sell, and don't breed to siblings or back to parents more than once or twice before outcrossing.

An issue that hasn't appeared in garters yet but is present in both Pacman frogs and Ball Pythons is that of a particular morph that sells well but has undesirable physical effects (shortened lifespan/neurological deficits/skeletal abnormalities). Personally I think that breeding an animal you KNOW will suffer from serious physical problems is just amoral no matter how much it sells for.

[EKS56]

If being chill is a quality you look for the female is about as docile as any I've ever held.

[d_virginiana]

I think the main thing is that both snakes involved are healthy and have desirable traits.

As an aside, can we either let this thread die, start a different thread, or actually discuss ethics? It seems like this thread keeps getting dragged back to life because of the initial drama rather than a desire to discuss breeding.

[Jeff B]

Some people are impatient and/or greedy. They breed just to breed and because they want their "pets" to make them money.

Name one person that makes money breeding garters? Let alone eeks out a poverty level living. Try and I will laugh. There is no greed in the garter snake hobby. If you are lucky you break even. I personally have never even broke even.
Do you guys think that in the wild, garters "wait" to breed until what your minds have deemed is the proper size or age? When they are able they will....just like humans.

[EKS56]

Name one person that makes money breeding garters? Let alone eeks out a poverty level living. Try and I will laugh. There is no greed in the garter snake hobby. If you are lucky you break even. I personally have never even broke even.
Do you guys think that in the wild, garters "wait" to breed until what your minds have deemed is the proper size or age? When they are able they will....just like humans.

I'll have to say I was a little disappointed that I did not see a single garter snake display at the Raleigh, NC Repticon. That looked like a pretty big deal to me for it not to be a single table for Garters.

[guidofatherof5]

I think garterless shows would be the norm as they are even looked down upon in the snake hobby. Luckily, we get it and understand how special they are.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...nned-show.html

[EKS56]

LOL!!! I checked out your link.
Just like the housing bubble burst I think you will see the same with all the Pied Pythons. There were hundreds of them there and I could hear a couple of the vendors fussing that some of their competition was under cutting their prices. There were a lot of python's there that were $400-$700 that went back home with their owner's.

[d_virginiana]

In a way I'm really kind of glad that garters have stayed out of the mainstream popular pets. You almost never see them being mistreated at chain petstores, and as far as I'm aware there aren't any 'harmful' morphs (like spider BPs and Green Apple pacman frogs) that people still breed for because they sell.
That, and like Jeff said, people are breeding garters bc they love working with them, not bc they want to turn a profit.

[joeysgreen]

What? An attractive snake that's active during the day and is loaded with personality? If this gets out the ball python world is going to be outraged!