Sirtalis ssp?

[Didymus20X6]

From what Steve says, I get that you can keep any non-native species. It's just that, with any native species, you have to be able to prove that it was not taken from the wild.

[guidofatherof5]

But does that mean you can't keep or sell non native species?

Good question. I feel like a dope for not asking. I'll drop him an email this weekend. Sorry about that.

[jwolfe152]

wow even reading the entire thread im still confused. i am sooo glad wv laws are simple, by law i do need to get a permit for Ekoh.

[guidofatherof5]

Good question. I feel like a dope for not asking. I'll drop him an email this weekend. Sorry about that.

Email sent. I'll report his answer when I get it.

[guidofatherof5]

Here was my question to the Texas Parks and Wildlife
Is there a code prohibiting someone from buying, breeding and selling non-native Thamnophis in Texas?

And the response:

No, not unless there are other laws involved (i.e. sale of SF garters, etc).

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
Herpetologist
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, Texas 78744
(512) 389-8722
(512) 389-8758 FAX
andy.gluesenkamp@tpwd.texas.gov

[Sherrie]

Thanks for looking into that Steve. I think that's how I would have read the TPWD website, but then someone who should know more about these things than me told me differently. Oh well, it's not really an issue for me anyway.

[Sherrie]

Good to know now, though.

[ConcinusMan]

There are 13 (?) subspecies of T. sirtalis or "common garter snake". In some states that ban keeping native species, they do not recognize subspecies and so you can't keep any sirtalis subspecies even if the subspecies you want to keep, doesn't occur in that state. Make sense?

Lets say completely theoretically, Oregon bans natives as pets and lets say T. sirtalis concinnus (red spotted) is the only subspecies of common garter in the state. If you want to keep an eastern (T. sirtalis sirtalis) which doesn't occur in Oregon you still can't have it because it is still a T. sirtalis. Many states only look at the first and second Latin name and ignore the third. So as far as the law is concerned, an eastern garter is the same as a native red spotted. Get it? By that scenario an eastern is still native to oregon even though they don't live in Oregon because technically all sirtalis' are the same species. They are all "common garter snake"

Same thing applies to T. elegans, or "Western Terrestrial" garter in WA. Since T. elegans vagrans (wandering garter) occurs in WA State, if they banned all natives you couldn't own a T. elegans terrestris (coast Garter) even though coast garters don't live in WA. They are still both "western terrestrial" and therefore both are considered native. Yes, I know. Ridiculous, but most wildlife laws are ridiculous, outdated, and archaic. They know this, that's why they look at each case when deciding weather or not to pursue charges. In many cases, such as keeping native garters in WA, they don't really care and don't prosecute anyway. The law was put into place to keep pet stores from selling locally caught animals and to keep people from catching and keeping game animals. Not to put kids in jail for keeping a garter they found in their backyard.

There never has been a legal way for pugets to get into the pet trade too. But once that snake crosses state lines, whoever buys it or keeps it is subject to the laws of their own state, not WA laws. So it's legal for a guy in Idaho to own, buy, sell a puget as long as it's not against ID law to keep T. sirtalis. (this just theoretical)

[jwolfe152]

There are 13 (?) subspecies of T. sirtalis or "common garter snake". In some states that ban keeping native species, they do not recognize subspecies and so you can't keep any sirtalis subspecies even if the subspecies you want to keep, doesn't occur in that state. Make sense?

Lets say completely theoretically, Oregon bans natives as pets and lets say T. sirtalis concinnus (red spotted) is the only subspecies of common garter in the state. If you want to keep an eastern (T. sirtalis sirtalis) which doesn't occur in Oregon you still can't have it because it is still a T. sirtalis. Many states only look at the first and second Latin name and ignore the third. So as far as the law is concerned, an eastern garter is the same as a native red spotted. Get it? By that scenario an eastern is still native to oregon even though they don't live in Oregon because technically all sirtalis' are the same species. They are all "common garter snake"

Same thing applies to T. elegans, or "Western Terrestrial" garter in WA. Since T. elegans vagrans (wandering garter) occurs in WA State, if they banned all natives you couldn't own a T. elegans terrestris (coast Garter) even though coast garters don't live in WA. They are still both "western terrestrial" and therefore both are considered native. Yes, I know. Ridiculous, but most wildlife laws are ridiculous, outdated, and archaic. They know this, that's why they look at each case when deciding weather or not to pursue charges. In many cases, such as keeping native garters in WA, they don't really care and don't prosecute anyway. The law was put into place to keep pet stores from selling locally caught animals and to keep people from catching and keeping game animals. Not to put kids in jail for keeping a garter they found in their backyard.

There never has been a legal way for pugets to get into the pet trade too. But once that snake crosses state lines, whoever buys it or keeps it is subject to the laws of their own state, not WA laws. So it's legal for a guy in Idaho to own, buy, sell a puget as long as it's not against ID law to keep T. sirtalis. (this just theoretical)

that was a very good, thought out, and explained answer

but yea that law is just stupid, it casts too wide of a net on the thamnophis species. also how do they go after people catching and selling the species for profit? i mean couldn't you just make a fake receipt of sale saying you got it from someone else?

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about Texas but in WA and OR I know of no cases where they have pursued an investigation involving non-game animals. It's illegal to sell game meat or parts and in those cases a an undercover officer makes the purchase in order to get a conviction. Basically they've always had limited resources/officers and it's even worse now, so they prioritize and have always concentrated on busting game violators. The only snake that gets any attention and proactive protection is the California Mt. King.