Jon's Garter Snake Thread ( Suzi )

[ConcinusMan]

It's a two sided coin and both sides hold advantages over the other. Both sides also have disadvantages.

Exactly. But to say a snake is healthier or will produce healthier offspring just because it's CB instead of WC is a bit absurd. There's no hard data to suggest that's true at all and it's certainly not what I've experienced. In fact, some species/morphs are so inbred that outcrossing with WC snakes is exactly what they need to improve their overall health and genetic diversity.

[Foxrun402]

Interesting really... I was more or less stating that a living creature that has had proper doc visits and been taken care of properly would most likely be in better health then that of a wild version which has not seen a doc at all! But, I see where you are coming from too. There are a lot of angles to this... now has me leaning the other way about being wild and thus gaining a better immune system because of the fact you're involved with much more then a CB snake would be... Just keeping my mind open to idea and exploring this world as much as I can! Lots of stuff to learn =)

I did however get Steve pictures today in 'Natural Light' and I must say.... They turned out better then most the others!



She hated being in there. So I picked her up and she practically posed for you!


Now she is eating and those DMF night-crawlers are getting much bigger.... I liked seeing that!

[guidofatherof5]

Suzi is looking good. Thanks for the photos.

[Foxrun402]

I was pretty well amazed how much different the lighting made on her appearance! Thank you for suggesting that!

[Foxrun402]

Updated tail photos... She was only about 6-7" long the first time we all tried to determine male or female... Well now she is much bigger at around 26-27"

today we hung out for a good 45 minutes trying to get this tail photo... she has to wrap her tail around everything in fear of falling or something!
So every time I tried to get this photo... I had to hold her with 1 hand and use the camera and soon as my 2nd hand went away she would wrap all around my wrist....
Pain in the butt she is at times, but always happy and calm while I'm holding her!

Chillin'


Tail photo: (best I could do)


Male or female? Figured cant hurt to take another look!

[guidofatherof5]

Female, still.

[ConcinusMan]

I was more or less stating that a living creature that has had proper doc visits and been taken care of properly would most likely be in better health then that of a wild version which has not seen a doc at all!

Again, that's overgeneralizing. None of the WC snakes I ever owned over the years ever saw a vet and many lived in good health to a "ripe" old age. Some of them I'm sure even carried some type of parasites. However, the particular population I get many of mine from now seems to have pretty bad parasite problem so a proper deworming (which I do myself, guided by a zoologist on how to do it right) and sometimes combined with antibiotics (for flagellates) is imperative. otherwise their long-term health and captive survival a crapshoot. But yeah, there is a lot of things that wild snakes can carry that they just can't live with in captivity when you add the initial stress of captive life so I address those in the initial few weeks following capture. Things that CB snakes usually don't have. The result of adressing these things right after capture, is that around 85 percent of them stay healthy and do well long term. If I didn't do that probably only around 40-50% would even make it at all, let alone stay healthy long-term. On the flip side, CB snakes which are many generations removed from the wild and bred selectively for certain traits such as color can, and often do, also get the "good genes" (such as parasite tolerance, cold/heat tolerance, large litters, immunity to certain pathogenic diseases, etc.) selected out of them unknowingly, which can make them actually inferior to WC and basically just not as tough. You have to consider there is constant pressure on the wild population so the opposite happens. Any that don't have that tolerance die before they can reproduce or are otherwise unsuccessful at reproducing. There just tends to be more genetic diversity (mostly very important "invisible" genes that breeders overlook) which is why it's so important to outcross your lines with wild snakes every few generations even if there are no visible signs of inbreeding depression. There, I know it's off-subject but there's some of the advantages/disadvantages Steve mentioned. I believe there's a "WC vs. Captive bred" thread here somewhere (and other places on the web) you should read to sort out the myths from the facts.

I did however get Steve pictures today in 'Natural Light' and I must say.... They turned out better then most the others!

They always do. The problem most likely is that you had the white balance/color balance set wrong for your indoor lighting, or set to "auto" and most affordable cameras just suck at adjusting it right on "auto" or they default to adjust for natural daylight. That just won't work with artificial light unless it has a natural color balance. I like mine because even if none of the settings work well in a situation I can manually adjust it /w preview but it still works best when I take my subject outside on a cloudy day or in the shade.

[ConcinusMan]

Male or female? Figured cant hurt to take another look!

I don't know man... the others' are saying female but I think that's questionable. When I'm not quite sure/undecided it usually turns out they are male but then again, the body is somewhat bulky for a male red-sided.

[Foxrun402]

And she is nearing 30" as she grows continuously....

Edit: I did a bit of research and found a guy that works for A-4 Animal Hospital and would sex her for me, but he recommended she be a little over a year old and of decent size before she is brought in....

[ConcinusMan]

Since I'm sure he's just going to probe, then yes a little more growing would be good because even the smallest probes you can get might be too large for her if she's in fact a "he" instead.