Who likes big girls?

[Jeff B]

Funny thing is I don't remember ever doing any inbreeding myself (except 1 time), even the pairs of same morph that I have bought before from Scott were always from different females (with the exception of the double het snow red-sideds that produced the first snow). Last several years all of my breedings have been from completely different morphs crossed to each other. Even my checkereds are from different sources. This year I breed 23 females and none of the breeding were even remotely related, completely outcrossed, with the exception of my het green axanthic females (mother was wild caught completely unrelated to wild caught green axanthic father) that were bred back to the original wild caught green axanthic male only in an attempt to prove out a new morph gene, which sometimes that is necessary to initially prove out. I think one of the biggest factor in captive breeding is that the snakes have ZERO choices that they can make as to their real-time environment. Certainly captive conditions are not a one size fits all as these snakes are from different locales and latitudes, not to mention they are all individuals. In the wild they can move if they aren't where they want to be. When people talk like they have it all figured out, it just demonstrates to me how little they know about what they don't know.

[Jeff B]

Tom, thanks for sharing your brumation conditions. That isn't too different from what I do with the exception that you start way earlier in the late summer/fall. Every year is an experiment for me, a little tweak here and there.

[MasSalvaje]

I wouldn't label myself a "breeder" but I do have some experience with breeding garters. I think it is kind of interesting that we often (at least every breeding season it seems like) have this debate of what captive litters are, compared to their wild counterparts. Every possibility in the book is thrown out there as to why there seems to be so many more jellies and stillborn babies in captivity. It may be one cause, it may be a combination of multiple causes, but I find it interesting that the "natural" methods these snakes use to reproduce are rarely brought up. It has been shown in multiple studies that garters are a multiple paternal species. This study,

Multiple Paternity in Wild Populations of the Garter Snake, Thamnophis sirtalis, James M. Schwartz, Gary F. McCracken and Gordon M. Burghardt, Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, Vol. 25, No. 4 (1989), pp. 269-273,

estimates that up to 73% of garter litters exhibit multiple paternity. I don't often hear this as a possible reason for the number of jellies and stillborn babies in captivity. We know that in the wild garters are involved in mating balls; how many of us provide "mating balls" in captivity?

Personally I am still not convinced that there is any greater number of jellies in captive breeding when compared to wild breeding, but if there is I would attribute the overall higher number to the lack of multiple paternal mating. The other reasons many of you have mentioned may be reasons for individual situations, but if I were to paint all garters with a broad brush, I would start with multiple paternity.

The fact is, one of the reasons garters are so successful in the wild is because they have built-in ways to skew percentages of possible problems that may be manifested through simple Mendelian genetics (there is a paper on that as well, I can dig up the source of that if anyone is interested). I don't see it as coincidence that we, for the most part, go against these tendencies by trying to force garters to fit into the mold of simple Mendelian genetics, and then wonder why it doesn't always work.

Just my thoughts.

-Thomas Wilder

[Jeff B]

Thomas I think you bring up a very good point. Scott Felzer told me once that he tries to keep at least 2 males for every female. There was a period where I tried to maximize efficiency by having more females than males, a practice of many other snake species breeders. I have learned (the hard way) that rotating multiple males thru is a better practice. I have been trying to build my male numbers back up the past couple years, but unfortunately the males are the ones that most often die in a long brumation. The other thing I have been trying to do to counteract that is to feed males more heavily in the summer and fall. I am constantly trying to take all these little nuggets and apply them and make mods and do the best I can. This season every one of my females saw multiple males, many saw 4 different males. I think most people that have done much captive breeding of reptiles in general will say that sometimes it seems so easy, other times it seems an impossibility to get it all right every time. It's a lot of fun and anticipation, and when you do produce a nice litter it's a nice reward for all the hard work. Nothing beats opening a tub and seeing all those little eyes looking up at you.

[snakeman]

I have never had a snake die in Brumation.what are your conditions Jeff?

[mike_panic]

Now that makes a ton of sense to me. Good stuff Thomas. Thanks for posting that up. Mike Panichi

I wouldn't label myself a "breeder" but I do have some experience with breeding garters. I think it is kind of interesting that we often (at least every breeding season it seems like) have this debate of what captive litters are, compared to their wild counterparts. Every possibility in the book is thrown out there as to why there seems to be so many more jellies and stillborn babies in captivity. It may be one cause, it may be a combination of multiple causes, but I find it interesting that the "natural" methods these snakes use to reproduce are rarely brought up. It has been shown in multiple studies that garters are a multiple paternal species. This study,

Multiple Paternity in Wild Populations of the Garter Snake, Thamnophis sirtalis, James M. Schwartz, Gary F. McCracken and Gordon M. Burghardt, Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, Vol. 25, No. 4 (1989), pp. 269-273,

estimates that up to 73% of garter litters exhibit multiple paternity. I don't often hear this as a possible reason for the number of jellies and stillborn babies in captivity. We know that in the wild garters are involved in mating balls; how many of us provide "mating balls" in captivity?

Personally I am still not convinced that there is any greater number of jellies in captive breeding when compared to wild breeding, but if there is I would attribute the overall higher number to the lack of multiple paternal mating. The other reasons many of you have mentioned may be reasons for individual situations, but if I were to paint all garters with a broad brush, I would start with multiple paternity.

The fact is, one of the reasons garters are so successful in the wild is because they have built-in ways to skew percentages of possible problems that may be manifested through simple Mendelian genetics (there is a paper on that as well, I can dig up the source of that if anyone is interested). I don't see it as coincidence that we, for the most part, go against these tendencies by trying to force garters to fit into the mold of simple Mendelian genetics, and then wonder why it doesn't always work.

Just my thoughts.

-Thomas Wilder

[ConcinusMan]

So Richard how many litters have you produced in your "25+" years of breeding garters? Must be at least 25 right?

I don't rightly know. Even if I was counting I would have lost count by now.

I think that conditioning and brumations could be a factor.

Seems reasonable. I do realize it's inconclusive but the smallest litter I had (just 7 babies) came from an unbrumated female, which also happened to be my only time getting a litter from an unbrumated female. Brumated the year before, she had 19.

[ConcinusMan]

I have never had a snake die in Brumation.what are your conditions Jeff?

Nor have I, knock on wood, but I have had 2 adult females die within a couple of weeks out. One just never resumed eating and quickly wasted away. The other seemed fine but died just a week out. Since they didn't die during brumation, it could just be a coincidence that they were just brumated. I've brumated babies before and again none died during, but a few died within days of warming up.

[Jeff B]

If a snake dies a week or two out of brumation I consider that as the cause of death. Usually that is what happens, they don't actually die during bruation, but that can happen too.

[ConcinusMan]

snakes use to reproduce are rarely brought up. It has been shown in multiple studies that garters are a multiple paternal species. This study,

Multiple Paternity in Wild Populations of the Garter Snake, Thamnophis sirtalis, James M. Schwartz, Gary F. McCracken and Gordon M. Burghardt, Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, Vol. 25, No. 4 (1989), pp. 269-273,

estimates that up to 73% of garter litters exhibit multiple paternity. I don't often hear this as a possible reason for the number of jellies and stillborn babies in captivity. We know that in the wild garters are involved in mating balls; how many of us provide "mating balls" in captivity?

And which garter almost always the subject of these studies? Yeah that's right, canadian parietalis' and what do the scientists do? Study that one and make it sound like their conclusions apply to all garters. And I got news for you. None of the garters in my area even form mating balls. I hardly consider two males chasing a female a "mating ball" and you sure as heck don't see thousands piled up like you do in manitoba. Yes I know some do have multiple paternity. Northwesterns do, and they can even control when eggs are fertilized. Gestation doesn't have to begin at mating time but I can tell you it always does when it comes to concinnus and once she mates by choosing one male, she doesn't even attract males anymore so it wouldn't make any difference if I let 10 males go at her. She'll only mate with one and the rest quit trying after that. One male is quite enough to fertilize all the eggs she can produce so if you're implying they didn't all get fertilized because one male didn't give her enough sperm well that's just absurd. And just because we see a yolk or a bunch of yolks (or a total slug out) come out doesn't mean it ever had a viable egg with it to be fertilized in the first place.

And Thomas, I've caught I don't know how many wild gravid garters and had them give birth in captivity. Not once have I seen the pathetic slug-outs and/or low numbers we see very often in captivity and I don't think that observation is mere coincidence.