Sudden onset neurological problem

[chris-uk]

OK, it's not necessarily thiaminase deficiency. Whatever the cause, the symptoms described are far from encouraging.

The trouble is that so few snakes get a proper necropsy that cause of death is rarely determined with any certainty, so the prevalence isn't clear. . The symptoms and history could fit thiaminase deficiency, it's something I've not experienced first hand and hope I never do so I can only go with descriptions I've read. Maybe other causes fit the symptoms as well. Richard threw out a few ideas for possible causes, but mainly put the symptoms down to a snake in extreme pain (I fail to see how the symptoms didn't sound like a neurological problem), that is a cause that can be proved as easily as thiaminase deficiency.
In the circumstances described by the OP there really are two options - get it to a good vet, or watch for the progression of symptoms and be prepared to euthanase or watch it die.

[Stefan-A]

I think that this forum as a whole needs to start taking other issues into account a little more.

Neither this forum nor any other can remote diagnose. It doesn't matter what issues are taken into account.



ps. there are differences between smelts, there are differences between f/t and live and diets in the wild are normally varied, but that's a separate discussion.

[d_virginiana]

It could be any number of things, but Thiaminase deficiency is one of the only ones where there is a potential treatment or something the owner can do (supplementing the necessary vitamin). It could be a protozoan ingested by eating gross petstore minnows has infested the brain and spinal cord and is now causing seizures, or it could be that heavy metal poisoning from a water supply is causing them, or maybe the snake isn't full grown and it has a congenital disorder that's just now showing up. It could be a infection, perforated intestine, failed liver, or any other condition that might allow toxins to build up in the body and affect the brain. But then again, most of those last ones should show other symptoms before it gets to that stage.

I have to agree with Steve, thiaminase is the easiest thing to blame given the history, but it's also the only one that the owner really has a chance to do anything about and maybe reverse or at least stop the damage being done. Even with that the outlook is bleak by the time seizures start up.

On that note: Am I just hallucinating there being a member a few years ago who got vitamin injections for a couple seizing ribbons and saw some success? I think maybe one died and one lived or something like that? It was near when I first joined, so I really had no clue what was up and don't remember it 100%.

[ConcinusMan]

Whatever the cause, the symptoms described are far from encouraging.

True, but the condition that caused it, and the behavior/reaction could also only be temporary and might pass. Simple gas pains can cause the symptoms/behavior described.

On that note: Am I just hallucinating there being a member a few years ago who got vitamin injections for a couple seizing ribbons and saw some success?

That very well could be, but who's to say that the symptoms wouldn't have passed without the injections? Also, over-supplementing when it's not necessary can can be as disastrous as the deficiency itself.

neither this forum nor any other can remote diagnose. It doesn't matter what issues are taken into account.

bingo!

[d_virginiana]

I always wonder why people get so upset over anyone mentioning Thiaminase deficiency... I'll be the first to say that feeding unsafe foods doesn't necessarily cause this problem. My adult ate SOLELY baitstore minnows for over a decade until I learned better, and is still healthier than a lot of snakes I see that are half his age. Doesn't mean I will get the same result if I start another snake on that same diet.
In four years of taking neuroscience courses, I never came across a neurological phenomenon in any species that couldn't vary so much in onset-age, severity, and recovery rate that two cases could look like completely different disorders.

Garters are incredibly common, and not of very high interest ecologically or in the pet trade, so we'll likely NEVER get solid data on the effect of thiaminase on this species.

True, but the condition that caused it, and the behavior/reaction could also only be temporary and might pass. Simple gas pains can cause the symptoms/behavior described.

I could understand thinking the cause might be something non-neurological if the symptoms only included the 'death rolling'. But how often does simple gas pain cause a snake to have seizures (yes, I know we can't diagnose whether or not it is truly a seizure, especially without video), lie belly up, or have difficulty controlling its muscle movements? I'm no expert by any means, but I have studied neuroscience, and everything I've read sounds a heck of a lot more like a neurological issue than simple gas pains. That's a possibility, yes, but it just seems like a much less probable one.

That very well could be, but who's to say that the symptoms wouldn't have passed without the injections? Also, over-supplementing when it's not necessary can can be as disastrous as the deficiency itself.

Yes, the cause could have been something other than thiaminase. But when you have two ribbons being fed exclusively rosy reds, both develop seizures, and vitamin injections stop the seizures and save one, IMO it is more logical to assume that thiaminase was the issue than to assume that two snakes being fed high amounts of thiaminase both randomly developed severe neurological conditions, and one improved randomly with no relation to receiving medical treatment known to combat thiaminase poisoning.

Personally, if the snake didn't begin to improve within a day or two or if its symptoms started worsening rapidly, I'd look into getting the injection if it were my pet. I realize that can be just as fatal as the deficiency (kind of like antibiotics in very small snakes). But there's probably a point of no return in situations like this, and when it got bad enough for me to think it wasn't likely to resolve itself, I'd probably be willing to take that risk even if I couldn't be sure what was causing it or if it would help.

[ConcinusMan]

I always wonder why people get so upset over anyone mentioning Thiaminase deficiency...

Who's upset? Just trying to bring some balance/other things to consider. All too often people are just so quick to blame thiamine deficiency/thiaminase poisoning just because their snake ate a few minnows and is now spazzing out. I've had them develop tremors, seizures, etc or even spazz out in the way described when they haven't had a bit of thiaminase. One time I had them develop tremors after eating trout for a long time. Took them off the trout and all but one recovered. Now, supposedly trout doesn't have it, and supposedly they don't go from healthy to thiaminase poisoning in just a couple of months. But it sure looked like thiaminase poisoning. Doesn't mean it was, especially considering it was trout.

Now, what was described just doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. No tremors? No vibrating? No problems moving around? Just sudden rolling and mouth open, etc. All I know is that I've see snakes act like that when it couldn't possibly be thiaminase, more times than I can count. Sometimes it just passes and the cause is never known. Sometimes they just throw up and feel better. Sometimes they just drop dead soon after. We don't really know what the snake's problem is, and that's the point I'm trying to make. If the snake just drops dead tomorrow one could just say he died because of thiaminase and that might even be true but the point is we don't really know that.

And yeah, in my opinion it doesn't sound like a neurological problem but I don't claim that it isn't. Just doesn't sound like it is all, from the basic description. It's not like I have the snake right here under observation.

[d_virginiana]

No one seems to get angry, it just seems that the thiaminase thing is almost political. I think it's where it hasn't ever been proven in snakes or something, idk.

But like you mentioned there's no way to tell whether the snake is seizing or not without observation... I know it would be hard to get but a video of the snake's behavior would be great. Even if he's not 'seizing' or doing anything crazy, just a video of him crawling around, or maybe wrapping around your hand would give people a much better idea of whether or not he's having neurological difficulties.

Now, what was described just doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. No tremors? No vibrating? No problems moving around? Just sudden rolling and mouth open, etc. All I know is that I've see snakes act like that when it couldn't possibly be thiaminase, more times than I can count.

I thought the owner said the snake was 'flipping' and lying on its back, and seemed to have trouble maintaining balance while crawling, as well as moving erratically/slowly? Maybe I misread that... That's what made me think 'neuro'.
But yeah, 'death rolling' and mouth gaping don't mean neuro issues, so much as they mean 'unhappy snake'. I've had perfectly healthy wild water snakes death roll and mouth gape at me just because they were scared. Definitely not disagreeing with you there!

[hissies]

Now, what was described just doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. No tremors? No vibrating? No problems moving around? Just sudden rolling and mouth open, etc.

No, the sudden rolling was describing the first seizure. d_virginiana's right, I did say in my first post that afterwards he's acted lethargic, slithering erratically, and seems unable to keep himself upright. He's had at least four more small episodes like this since, being in the enclosure without me touching or interacting with him at all, some of which I've witnessed more of. It's like he suddenly flails, then seizes up in a varying "crinkled" position, often with the tip of his tail tremoring while the rest of his body is still. Twice I've seen him flick his tongue out during one of these, holding it out for several seconds while he's seized. It seems like after the second and third times, his motor control's worsened. He tends to the left even when slithering slowly (a 'circling' behavior I've seen and known to be caused by neurological issues in mammals, for what it's worth- I know reptiles are different.)

We just got back from the vet. He told me that it is definitely a neuro issue, and after further examination and calling two specialists, told me that he thinks it's inclusion body disease. He told me that there is a test they can do to determine this for sure, but heavily implied that he didn't think it was worth doing. He said that parasites and vitamin deficiencies are other possibilities, though he seemed fairly well convinced that it is IBD. He told me he wanted to give me time to think about it and wasn't going to euthanize him today, but if this is what it is then there is no treatment. The vet also offered to refer me to a specialist a couple hours away if I was inclined to get a more in-depth opinion.

He did give my snake a thiamin shot, stating that it won't hurt anything and in case it might help. I plan on doing my own research on IBD- I've only read about it incidentally, as I've only ever seen it referenced in relation to python species. What do you think? Should I get a second opinion (from the specialist or my usual vet?) Is it worth having the test done? Should I just try and manage it for the next few days and if he continues to seize/fails to eat, have him PTS? I plan on giving it at least a couple days to see if the thiamin shot helped, but I won't let him suffer or starve to death.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have never heard of ibd in garter snakes! Has your garter been in contact with a boa or a python? Ibd is a disease that infects boas and pythons and i find it very unlikely that a garter would have ibd.

[Invisible Snake]

I highly doubt it is IBD.