Sandy soil.

[infernalis]

Wayne-What substrate mix do you use for your boscs?

Dirt from out back, mixed with a lttle play sand.

I don't think that the habitat they are from should make any difference in your substrate choice. Some substrates are a poor choice for garter snakes, others are good. I don't think it makes any difference what type of habitat your garter inhabits in the wild. Also, if you're going to use sand, I think it's important to consider that not all sands are created equal.

I am rather confused Richard, so am I to assume this means we know better than the animals about what they need or prefer, so we should take away control from them and force the animal to live in a fashion that is what we feel is best for them??

Not taking a jab at you or anything, but the statement you made almost sounds like Garter Snakes don't know what is best for themselves.

[Stefan-A]

I am rather confused Richard, so am I to assume this means we know better than the animals about what they need or prefer, so we should take away control from them and force the animal to live in a fashion that is what we feel is best for them??

In all fairness, nature doesn't provide optimal conditions, animals just adapt to the existing ones. All we learn from the natural conditions, is that they won't kill garters faster than the garters can reproduce. In fact, under natural conditions, garters are killed as fast as they can reproduce.
To use a more radical example of people knowing better: We don't brumate our animals under conditions that kill half of them each year.

[chris-uk]

As Stefan eluded to, discussions about wild versus captive conditions should consider the wild versus captive survival rates. The survival rate of wild animals would be completely unacceptable to any keeper of captive animals. However, discussions tend to be about single factors (i.e. is the substrate good or bad? Or, will this brumation method work well?) and the wild death rates aren't attributable to single factors.

Can eating soil kill a captive snake? Almost certainly in the right conditions. Do wild snakes die after ingesting soil? Almost certainly, but I doubt there's any evidence to support this.

[infernalis]

In all fairness, nature doesn't provide optimal conditions, animals just adapt to the existing ones. All we learn from the natural conditions, is that they won't kill garters faster than the garters can reproduce. In fact, under natural conditions, garters are killed as fast as they can reproduce.
To use a more radical example of people knowing better: We don't brumate our animals under conditions that kill half of them each year.

I was in no way suggesting that we subject our captives to extremes like cold, famine, droughts, floods , predators or diseases.

However, things like stuck sheds, scale rot, etc.. would be a lot less of an issue if more people would keep husbandry within the parameters of an "ideal day" in the wild, rather than forcing animals to live under conditions that we find pleasing to us.

hope that makes sense.

[chris-uk]

... keep husbandry within the parameters of an "ideal day" in the wild...

Well put. My aims are to provide as ideal an environment as is practical. The debate is around what natural hazards you exclude and the line where practical becomes impractical. With a lottery win, I'd consider building an escape-proof (yeah, we've all heard that before) room to mimic habitats, and they would certainly involve using a soil substrate - unfortunately this pie-in-the-sky ambition isn't an option so far.

[Stefan-A]

Not all hazards are obvious.

[chris-uk]

Not all hazards are obvious.

Hence I was vague.

[infernalis]

Check out this thread Chris....

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/encl...1-outdoor.html - By Zooplan (Udo)

[chris-uk]

Check out this thread Chris....

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/encl...1-outdoor.html - By Zooplan (Udo)

Thanks Wayne, I just had a read of that old thread. I knew that a couple of European garter people had outdoor setups, I'd not seen Udo's thread. It looks like an impressive outdoor terrarium. My pie in the sky plan would involve several enclosures of that style in a barn-type building so that I could have some control over the elements.

[kimbosaur]

Wouldn't it get tricky if you start adding plants directly to the substrate? You're going to need to water them and soggy soil sounds like it would be a big headache if you accidentally overwater. I think the hardest thing is mimicking the natural balance of an ecosystem in a small enclosure.

I wonder if it would help if you plant the pots and hide them in the substrate. Maybe that would give you more control when it comes to watering and cleaning?