T. ordinoides on the Ranch

[ConcinusMan]

I think the obsession is getting worse.I've started considering moving to the States because of the lack of ordinoides (and Thamnophis in general) in the UK.The main downsides I can think of is horrible tea,no free health care and terrible telly.

Well ordinoides are another species in the same situation as pickeringii and concinnus'. Small range to begin with, and 99% of it covers States (And B.C.) where they are technically illegal to collect. That (among many other things I can think of) might make it a bit difficult to export them in any significant numbers. Significant numbers would be needed too. Compared to sirtalis subspecies and checkered's, they are not hardy at all, and a significant portion of them don't do well in captivity. I end up having to release at least 60% of them that I attempt to keep.

[Greg'sGarters]

You know, next year, I will make it one of my new years resolutions to clear up some room for radix and ordinoides. I've been keeping my ears open and my eyes peeled for any negative comments on either one of these, only to come back with no bad evidence towards either one! I'm sure Richard will tell me that ordinoides is great, and Steve will tell me that radix are great!

[guidofatherof5]

I'll tell you both are great?

[Greg'sGarters]

Just the more reason why I should get myself one!

[ConcinusMan]

Just one? And just for the record, there are negatives.

[Greg'sGarters]

Well I would probably get more than 1. What are the negatives? I haven't heard any yet.

[ConcinusMan]

A high percentage of them will only eat worms and slugs. A high percentage don't do well in captivity at all and/or refuse to eat. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with CB babies that are introduced to a variety of foods early in their lives though. Breeding: Litters are very small. Neonate "failure to thrive" rate in captivity seems to be much higher than other species. Breeding often doesn't result in a litter. Sometimes they'll breed (often with multiple males) but you can't use the time of the breeding to predict when the litter will be born because they'll sometimes store sperm (up to 3 years) and ovulate later. (gestation is around 60 days but litters can happen years after last breeding) Selecting for specific phenotypes is very difficult due to polymorphism. Litter phenotypes can be unpredictable and/or have multiple sires. Their limited geographic range seems to be due to their very specific climate tolerance. They don't tolerate less than ideal environmental conditions as well as other species and their climate needs are very specific. There's been very limited success in keeping them outside of their native range. They just don't seem to live as long or be as hardy as other species, and even expert garter keepers have trouble keeping them successfully or maintaining their numbers in collections without adding new WC snakes every few years. There's been multiple attempts over the years to establish self-sustaining captive populations with no success. (and yet, their wild numbers are extremely high and they are the most frequently encountered reptile in their range)

[Greg'sGarters]

Wow, thats like the coquí frog of Puerto Rico. Extremely hardy and numerous in Puerto Rico, breed with amazing results in quantity. But not even some of the world's top herpetologists can keep them in captivity. It's still worth a try though with the ordinoides. I wouldn't be breeding them anyway. Now that I know this, I would definitely hook up a thermostat to their cage to ensure proper temperatures.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, it is worth a try. As far as environment goes, you should keep them a bit on the cool side and maintain 50-70 percent humidity at all times. Moist hides at all times are recommended too. They don't tolerate very dry or very warm conditions as well as you would expect from other garters. Success is really highly dependent on getting the right individuals. When you do get ones that do well, it is quite rewarding. They can have very sweet, intelligent personalities.

[guidofatherof5]

Yes, it is worth a try. As far as environment goes, you should keep them a bit on the cool side and maintain 50-70 percent humidity at all times. Moist hides at all times are recommended too. They don't tolerate very dry or very warm conditions as well as you would expect from other garters. Success is really highly dependent on getting the right individuals. When you do get ones that do well, it is quite rewarding. They can have very sweet, intelligent personalities.

True dat.