Shipping discussions

[MCwyo]

I don't care if it's not probable that my G & F will give me a hard time over it. Harvesting species against the law is NOT something I want any part of.

I checked and double checked my own state laws to make sure I could keep vagrans harvested from the wild. I checked the laws to make sure I could import live garter snakes into WY from other states before buying the concinnus. I completely screwed up in not checking the laws where the snakes were comming from.

I am taking this to PM now because it dose not belong in this thread- other than the fact that I have also learned that these snakes were shipped illegally - and I apologize, but it was brought up in this thread that the snakes I have were taken against the law. I will probably be opening a new thread at some point regaurding poaching.

[Robyn@TRR]

Okay...once again, scrolling through a lot of arguing to get here. And, it does kind of seem like Richard and twogromsmick...or whatever the name is, are arguing with everyone now just for the sake of arguing. I was incorrect in saying that SYR marks the boxes "live reptile"...it just says perishable on the box. I wasn't saying that I don't trust their specific heat packs so much as I was saying that I worry about using a heat pack at all. With all of the insulation and the fact that the snakes will be on a plane and a truck most of the time...I don't want them to overheat. So my question is...should I use the heat pack if I am going to ship now? And do you guys suggest I use the snake bags or the large deli cup? The snakes are yearlings...2 of them. Should I use packing peanuts to prevent jossling? And should I poke holes through the box and styrofoam like the SYR directions say, or not? I'm hearing different answers to these questions and I need to make a decision....thanks!

We suggest making two small holes on two sides of the box. I typically use a philips screwdriver and make 1/4" holes. The heat pack uses oxygen to create the heat.

And yes I would use a heat pack. In these temps, the heat pack is not going to make the box HOT, it is going to keep it temperate. The box interior temp probably won't exceed 65F with the heat pack in it, but it will get much colder without it. We have done lots of tests and experiments with winter shipping and heat packs, they work very well.

You can use packing peanuts, but crumpled newspaper works very well, it is easily accessible, and it doesn't get everywhere when unpacking the box. Newspaper also absorbs liquids in case the animal "liquids" up the box : )

[ConcinusMan]

Also, it's a good idea to fast them for 5-7 days and maybe let them go for a little swim prior to shipping to encourage them to go poop. Reduces the chances of pooping or vomiting during shipping.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey guys keep up the back and forth with regards to shipping, I plan on shipping next year and would like to learn how.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the info. And ummm...Tyler you are arguing with me about not arguing with other people. Dude...seriously. I was complaining because I wanted shipping info...not to listen to people fighting over stupid crap. And actually, I have plenty of friends that I can call who will help me with shipping info...but I thought that was what this thread was for. Of course I am going to complain if it gets derailed by people arguing...that is not what this thread or forum is for...take it to a PM. Or...I don't know, here is a concept...try being civil. I am done with this conversation and this thread. Thank you to everyone who helped me with my shipping questions.

[twgrosmick]

I thought that was what this thread was for

Your original thread is still alive and well and now has nothing to do with this thread. So still not sure why you are complaining. I also think that many people will agree that this is exactly what this forum is for. It was an argument, a point was proven, and now people who read this will realize that USPS is not an option and will also see how a few people on the forums have successfully shipped.

[EasternGirl]

Whatever. I wasn't complaining I was stating what I thought. I think that people can argue a point without being rude to other people. I'm not saying that we can't argue points on here...there is just a certain way of doing it that shows more respect for others than simply attacking people. And if you hadn't noticed I am not the only one that thought that the arguing was annoying. Like I said before..I really don't want to discuss this anymore...I was "complaining" because you are still arguing with me to argue that there is nothing wrong with arguing. Just read what I just said four or five times...or until you get it.

[twgrosmick]

As far as arguments go, I would say this was pretty constructive. We had two people who thought they were right, arguing their points, providing valid info on both sides, and at the end of it there was a thread full of info and everyone learned something new.... Not everything gets resolved with "pretty please"...

[ConcinusMan]

As far as arguments go, I would say this was pretty constructive. We had two people who thought they were right, arguing their points, providing valid info on both sides Not everything gets resolved with "pretty please"...

Can't argue with that. That's a very perceptive statement.

This is going to be long, so please read it all, or read none of it.

I don't agree that either "side" is necessarily completely "right" or "wrong". Both "sides" are screwed in one way or another. If history teaches us anything it's that law is not necessarily synonymous with morality or what's "right". There are quite a few perfectly legal things which I (and others) do regarding this hobby that a lot of people consider "wrong" and those people very well could be "right". In that case it's up to us individuals to decide what course of action should be taken. Sometimes that course of action is either illegal, or legal. Regardless way you chose, it's not necessarily "right" because it's legal, or "wrong" because its illegal. People really need to understand the distinction but many people don't.

Just please consider that when someone feels they are under attack, they might respond in a way that can be considered "digging in" if you will. They might make themselves out to look like an azz, or an outlaw in the process. They might seem like they're saying their way is the only "right" way, no matter how "wrong" it can be. Just consider the things that took place during the American civil rights movement. A lot of perfectly legal "wrongs" took place. People had to choose a side. Both sides were hurt, but in the end, laws were changed for the better. Our hobby and industry is currently under attack and scrutiny. We don't know how things are going to turn out, but the battle is going to be ugly.

Now, I do try to leave it up to my customers to ask the questions, check their laws, and decide what they want to do, and whether or not they want to risk "bending" the law. (to buy, or not to buy, to ship, or not to ship USPS) I would never intentionally deceive anyone asking the right questions. If the snake they are about to buy is wild-caught, I not only tell them it is, I also tell them approx. where it came from. If they feel morally obligated to not only check laws in their own state, but also the state where the snakes come from, that is their prerogative.

The bottom line is, most of these laws are not being broken by the recipient. If their state allows unregulated importation of garter snakes, such as WY does, then they are not doing anything "wrong" as far as the law is concerned but if they were in WA they would be very "wrong" if you think that breaking a ridiculous law is "wrong". If they feel it's "wrong" to receive WC snakes from WA and OR because it's technically illegal under their ridiculous "umbrella" law, then that is up to the recipient. They can "squeal" and the main negative result will be that the snakes they own, could be subject to being destroyed, although that would probably only happen if they lived where I live.

As I may have mentioned many times in other threads, and therefore exposed myself to the risk of prosecution, ( I aint skeered ) there is a gray area regarding laws in WA. What I mean is, the law is written in black and white, but garters fall under the umbrella of "native wildlife" The enforcement is a matter of choice by each state. They only respond to complaints and choose on a case-by-case basis, whether or not is in their best interests to pursue prosecution. Every state does this, even in case of murder, rape, burglary, petty theft, etc. and sometimes still decline to pursue prosecution if it isn't "worth it" as in, not in the best interest of the state or "spirit" of the law.

Now, I know I just invited fate (the law) to come knock on my door. Not really my intention, but if certain people feel the need to report out of their moral obligation I am ready for that. I will either do time for it, in which case the "system" will just "laugh" at my charges and release me long before my sentence is served, or I will just sit there and do the time. There is one other very real possibility, and that is, they will find that there is not enough "hard" evidence to pursue prosecution in a timely and affordable manner and so decide not to pursue. Now I leave it up to those people who might be thinking about making such a report, to decide if I am deserving a worst-case scenario in which prison is a very real possibility. I know, you're probably thinking "get down off that cross, I could use the wood to build a new vivarium".

Just something for us to think about. Is what I do so much different than those before me? Not really. If people hadn't done what I do now, your coveted Puget Sound garters would not exist anywhere in captivity, nor would concinnus'. THERE'S NEVER BEEN A LEGAL WAY for them to enter the pet trade. We would just have to do without them. If ever a day came when those were protected under federal law, I think I would bow out. Funny though, how WA thumbs it's nose at Federal law, (regarding marijuana law) Well good for them. It's about time states stood up the feds. And if I must stand up to WA regarding our "rights" to keep a few non-endangered garters, then sobiet. I am willing to face the possible consequences. I don't want to, but if it's necessary I will.

All that being said, I am very much still willing to re-evaluate what I've been doing and adjust practices accordingly or just quit altogether.

[Artic Exotics]

I care not to get into the politics of the arguement but i must say that the reading of this last post did remind me of a quote:

An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.

Martin Luther King, Jr