ID Please ASAP?

[Natrix]

OK! Identify these Both common and Latin names?
1)T_marcianus.jpg ...........................................
2)Radix.jpg.........................................
3) IMAG1000 a.jpg.........................................

[ConcinusMan]

1) Checkered Garter Snake. Sometimes known as Marcy's garter snake, or Marcy's checkered garter snake. T. marcianus marcianus.

2) Plains Garter Snake. Sometimes known as Great Plains Garter Snake. T. radix. One of Don Belnap's photos I believe.

3) Questionable. plains garters and checkered garters often share similar appearance, depending on location. This snake has features that appear to be a blend of the two species. However, in certain locations, pure checkered garters can look like this. So can pure radixes. This snake could be one, the other, or have both in it, which wouldn't surprise me if it was CB in Europe. Plains X checkered are well documented hybrids in captivity. If this snake is wild caught, location data would be needed to confirm it's identity. Without that, as Joe said "It's a guessing game"

[kibakiba]

The markings under the eyes and the black blotch on the neck scream checkered. I would just assume it's a hybrid.

[ConcinusMan]

Can't just assume though. It could just be checkered. I mean, just as an example, if I had shown you some of the T.s. concinnus' I have found and gave no location data, you would have sworn they weren't concinnus'. The location information would make it impossible to assume they were anything but concinnus'.

[kibakiba]

Well I'm good at assuming and leaving it at that. If the snake is a pet is it that important? It's nice knowing the species but the snake won't die if it's not identified.

[EasternGirl]

What the heck is a northianus? Are they making up species now? That last one in the new pics looks like an eastern with a checkered face...so...I'll say another northianus? A T.s.marcianus? Good grief! I give up! I wave my white flag.

Btw...that is a lovely snake you have...that second pic of him is so adorable!

[EasternGirl]

Oh..okay...I get the northianus thing now...it was a joke...I'm tired. I wouldn't be surprised you see...if someone was told that in all seriousness!

[Stefan-A]

The couple that I got him off were told that he was a Chequered T marcianus and the people that they got him off when he was 6mths old were probabley told that he was a 'Northern' T northianus .

Named after the famous herpetologist Oliver North? I suppose that would be T. northii.

T. septentrionalis or T. borealis should be okay, though.

[EasternGirl]

Alright...so I got to thinking last night after I got off of the forum. To combine a couple of discussions we have been having on here lately...looking at some of these garters we have been trying to ID lately and considering the fact that we have been struggling to ID some of them, and taking into account the fact that we have noticed traits from more than one species on some of them...which is why they have been so difficult to identify...is it too much of a leap to say that we could be dealing with crossbreeding here? I mean, if we know for a fact that some of these shops import W/C snakes and mislabel them...is it so hard to imagine they might be doing some crossbreeding as well?

[Natrix]

I know most people are leaning towards T marcianus or possible cross, but look closely at all 3 picks and there are only two snakes that are vurtually identical. The pattern on the second and third snakes are identical and nothing like the regular chequer board pattern of T marcianus in the first pic. Rather than just go off appearances has anyone compared scale counts yet? Taking into account, Pattern, position of lateral stripe, Supralabials etc... Some people are saying that the black marks on either side of the neck are so charictaristic of T marcianus and therefore must be a marcianus albeit a poor one. There are of course T radix with black marks in the same positions. I am sure that with the wealth of knowledge on here that this can finally be put to bed. There is no doubt in my mind that cross breeding has and probably does still go on, What people exactly intend to achieve with such practice is beyond me. As Greg has already pointed out in another post, With the vast natural variety that the Thamnophis Species offers this can only be detrimental to the hobby. As for the identity of the snake in question I myself am leaning 98% towards T radix.