Understanding breeding norms

[guidofatherof5]

I am not 100% against controlled cross breeding, you never know you might come up with a new kind of snake

Don't care. What we have is more then sufficient for me and doesn't muddy the water.

[kibakiba]

I'm with Steve. We already have so many species and absolutely beautiful morphs, you don't need to cross them. It'd be stupid.

[BUSHSNAKE]

that's kind of what I was getting at. Species of Avicularia such as Avicularia versicolor are visually different and do not need to be put under a microscope for identification. Avicularia avicularia how ever are just gathered from the wild and as so many different localities look nearly identical they are simply labeled up pink toe and sold in a pet shop which wouldn't be able to tell the difference even if the Tarantula could tell them. As a result many are then bred together and the offspring are sold on as A.avicularia and not as possible hybrids. I've heard of it in Brachypelma too.

cambridgei and irminia i think have also been mixed.

[InsanePirateDragon]

There's always a chance but its something that can happen, but besides getting beautilful colors can easily cause a genetic issue sometimes to come up with mudding up the waters to get something pretty.

In the Leo world there's this morph called the Engima, which is a gorgeous morph that is plagued with neurological problems that can range from minor to very severe to not showing any signs.

[gregmonsta]

I think the British situation should be enough to end this topic.

It doesn't matter how much you label hybrids, etc, some idiot further down the line will not pay attention and will sell someone the wrong snake and will potentially ruin someone's breeding project.

There are far too many hybrids in the hobby as it is and as much as others oooh and aaah over them - none looks 'better' than either parent species.

Chronically ugly hybrids are all over the place. The latest I saw was an everglades ratsnake x bullsnake. What a kick in the gut to Everglades ratsnakes - pretty much gone in the wild. At least a yellow x everglades is a natural intergrade.

The reason why I don't have corns or royals is because of this obsession with fashion in that industry sector. There are so many thamnophis species to choose from and I seriously fail to see what could be gained from any kind of cross-breeding other than snakes that more or less look like some other snakes of that genus. A pointless exercise that would do nothing but harm the hobby that we cherish.

[BUSHSNAKE]

for the record im a hardcore purist ...and i cant stand inbreeding

[Stefan-A]

It doesn't matter how much you label hybrids, etc, some idiot further down the line will not pay attention and will sell someone the wrong snake and will potentially ruin someone's breeding project.

When I sell snakes I've bred, I hand them over with a piece of paper that includes all the information I've been able to dig up regarding their lineage. At least one snake out of one clutch had passed to a second owner without the same information attached. The next time it changes owner, it's going be just an undetermined "garter snake".

The next person might house it with a parietalis or a radix and if they don't get eaten, there might be a clutch of hybrids, that will be sold to even less well informed people or pet stores as "garter snakes", who might eventually end up breeding the hybrids to something else, or to each other. And if I'm especially unlucky, I might one day come across a "garter snake" for sale, that I identify as just an "interesting looking vagrans", which actually happens to be a vagrans x radix x sirtalis x marcianus mix.

I've seen people here house Florida Blues and light radixes together, seemingly not realizing that they're completely different species. And some day, someone is going to cross them and put the offspring into circulation. It's just a matter of time.

[BUSHSNAKE]

When I sell snakes I've bred, I hand them over with a piece of paper that includes all the information I've been able to dig up regarding their lineage. At least one snake out of one clutch had passed to a second owner without the same information attached. The next time it changes owner, it's going be just an undetermined "garter snake".

The next person might house it with a parietalis or a radix and if they don't get eaten, there might be a clutch of hybrids, that will be sold to even less well informed people or pet stores as "garter snakes", who might eventually end up breeding the hybrids to something else, or to each other. And if I'm especially unlucky, I might one day come across a "garter snake" for sale, that I identify as just an "interesting looking vagrans", which actually happens to be a vagrans x radix x sirtalis x marcianus mix.

I've seen people here house Florida Blues and light radixes together, seemingly not realizing that they're completely different species. And some day, someone is going to cross them and put the offspring into circulation. It's just a matter of time.

This can all be avoided by knowing who or what your dealing with

[Stefan-A]

This can all be avoided by knowing who or what your dealing with

To an extent, not completely. And the point was that you don't necessarily know what you're dealing with or that the other person does.

[Eight]

I think the British situation should be enough to end this topic.

It doesn't matter how much you label hybrids, etc, some idiot further down the line will not pay attention and will sell someone the wrong snake and will potentially ruin someone's breeding project.

There are far too many hybrids in the hobby as it is and as much as others oooh and aaah over them - none looks 'better' than either parent species.

Chronically ugly hybrids are all over the place. The latest I saw was an everglades ratsnake x bullsnake. What a kick in the gut to Everglades ratsnakes - pretty much gone in the wild. At least a yellow x everglades is a natural intergrade.

The reason why I don't have corns or royals is because of this obsession with fashion in that industry sector. There are so many thamnophis species to choose from and I seriously fail to see what could be gained from any kind of cross-breeding other than snakes that more or less look like some other snakes of that genus. A pointless exercise that would do nothing but harm the hobby that we cherish.

The only royal I have owned or will ever keep are the normals. Admittedly my first snake was a snow cornsnake. I hate all the inbreeding to get the new colour 'flavour of the month'. I'm not too against the more basic colour mutations, like amelanistic or anerythristic, but I still think that nature provides the most stunning patterns and colours all by itself. I am a purist too though, and don't like the idea of hybrids. Intergrades/hybrids that occur naturally I'm fine with but taking two snakes from completely different geological areas to breed them is just wrong to me.