Thamnophis + Natrix = OK?

[RedSidedSPR]

Same as garters. I don't think they eat them, but they CAN eat them. Unlike garters, they can digest other snakes I believe, without dying themselves

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Hi John nice to hear from you ...don't be such a stranger...i was surprised to see your reply as although it is some years since i kept natrix in this case grassnakes, i always kept them in identical conditions to garters with no negative results, and i have always assumed that the geographical spread of the grassnake is mirrored climate wise by the garter snake, grassnakes occurring from the semi tropical south of Europe across to the frozen northern forest's of Russia,, which pretty much describes the range of the garter snake on the far side of the pond.

edit. the mating i referred to in the other thread between the grassake and the garter was actually between a German grassnake and an eastern garter whom i imagine would meet similar conditions in their wild state

lol They need an iphone app like rfuk for this site. I use my phone more than the laptop.

Anyway, people may have done it back in the day with some good results but this does not mean its correct. So your saying it is ok to keep a florida blue in with a grass snake from europe ect. I have been to florida and its much hotter than germany,holland ect. I could understand people getting away with it maybe with garters from further north but not something I would do. I do keep single sex groups of different garters if there temps and humidity requirements are the same. There is also a risk of pathogens that either species can not deal with but this is yet unprovern. (sorry about any spelling mistakes in a rush)

[Stefan-A]

I use my phone more than the laptop.

I've used my phone about 5 times since the end of November and it's not a smart phone.

[guidofatherof5]

I've used my phone about 5 times since the end of November and it's not a smart phone.

Is that a Forrest Gump phone?

[Stefan-A]

Is that a Forrest Gump phone?

Yes.

[RedSidedSPR]

Those things are badass.

Not.

I use my iPod touch always. Cuz I can't freaking get on the computer hardly ever and don't have my own. *cries and sobs and wails and all that good stuff*

[PINJOHN]

lol They need an iphone app like rfuk for this site. I use my phone more than the laptop.

Anyway, people may have done it back in the day with some good results but this does not mean its correct. So your saying it is ok to keep a florida blue in with a grass snake from europe ect. I have been to florida and its much hotter than germany,holland ect. I could understand people getting away with it maybe with garters from further north but not something I would do. I do keep single sex groups of different garters if there temps and humidity requirements are the same. There is also a risk of pathogens that either species can not deal with but this is yet unprovern. (sorry about any spelling mistakes in a rush)

now now John you are using the extremes to argue your case, naughty boy, you didn't think i would let you pull that one did you .
Germany is a somewhat northern part of Europe while Florida is using up a large part of whats deemed as the southern USA.
I could go on to argue that the grassnakes range in Greece and Turkey mirror the temperatures in Florida, but that is getting away from the central point that garters and grassnakes inhabit an identical niche [or as close as other wise possible] under sunny southern to dark northen sky's.
My next argument is going to bring the whole of the thamnophis site down on my head but what the hell, i'v got broad shoulders [well i use to have] i have thought for a long time that this threat from these largely unidentified pathogens is trotted out just too often, if a thing is repeated often enough it takes on a validity which in all cases might not be warranted, I am fully aware of for instance the introduction of the north American grey squirrel to England being a total disaster for our native species of red squirrel because of a pox carried by the grey to which the red has no resistance, but here we are talking mammals a form of life given it seems to a susceptibility to pathogens.
At about this point my fellow members will be reaching either for their keyboard or their trusty sword smeared with dung from that unfortunate cross eyed baboon and i suppose nail bombs always remain an option but before that perhaps someone can dig out any reports on the devastating effects that the pathogens from all those African pythons have had on the denizens of the everglades, I see many many reports on the carnage wrought by their appetites, but non from pathogens from a snake which comes from the continent which has given us mankind's most terrifying infectious diseases.
I wonder if the terror of these pathogens stems from the devastation they have brought about in the amphibian world on creatures who are wholly dependent on their skins for functions which are dealt with differently in other creatures.
we have sadly all read about these diseases spreading through the tropical jungles wiping out or severely depleting the frog populations, but is there even one report of an injurious effect by these pathogens on the snakes which prey on the frogs.
i seem to have taken the grassnake garter snake topic in a new direction but what the hell should make for good debate

[chris-uk]

I think the environmental conditions aspect is a consideration when housing any snakes together. That many garter species have such a large range makes it easy to put different species together, but I'd still shy away from putting garters together where their natural envionmental conditions varied greatly. What is significant is that the Canadian garters still operate in similar temps to Mexican garters, the difference being the months that they are active. That garters tend to be very adaptable helps keep them together. Similar story with natrix, for example I've read about a population of natrix tessalata living in Poland, when they are normally found further south so there's a adaptability in natrix as well. Whether all species of natrix and thamnophis could be safely kept together... I don't know, we'd have to consider each combination and decide.

Pathogen crossover between thamnophis and natrix is an unknown until someone produces the research that says that a virus/bacteria/other pathogen commonly and harmlessly carried in one genera has ill effects on the other. There's two ways to approach an unknown risk, either assume it is a high risk until proven safe, or assume it is not a risk until it proves otherwise. As with many things we make a risk assessment and decide how to react based on our perception of the risk.

[aquamentus_11]

i like it. i personally think that housing them together sounds fine; i have a T.s.parietalis and it doesn't get much more northern than that. i would go as far as to say that housing different genders of the two snakes would also be fine. they can't mate, they're from different genera. i could see a male putting the moves on the female, but nothing would come of it. the possible downsides would be the male not eating (they sound like they tend not to once they're in the mood), frustration and a need for sex counseling. if they don't eat each other, don't mate with each other, eat the same things and like the same environment it actually sounds like a non-breeder's dream. pathogens are another possibility. go cb.

that being said, i personally would not house two different genders together just because of the way females can put a male off feeding.

[guidofatherof5]

"An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
Just seems the place for that quote.

I think being over cautious in many respects is a good thing.
My quarantine procedure might be looked at that way but it doesn't hurt to be over cautious considering the possible consequences of not being.
Just my opinion.