New garter - I just couldn't help myself

[ConcinusMan]

I seem to recall a lot debating going on right here and in other communities. I also seem to recall yourself doubting the validity of species, let alone subspecies, since most of the current taxonomy is based on outward appearance and geographic range instead of DNA. I do know that if subspecies were based on DNA instead of outward appearance then concinnus and pickeringi would be the same subspecies, just different color morphs.

For that matter, why aren't Vancouver Island northwesterns a separate subspecies? They're geographically distinct, and they tend to all be very dark or melanistic. The snakes there are very uniform in color. Black or dark grey with dirty white stripes. You don't see the typical yellows, reds, etc. If they aren't a subspecies than what does it take to make them one? If it's DNA differences then you can just invalidate many subspecies.

This is the kind of debating I'm talking about. It's been going on for decades.

[EasternGirl]

I'm thinking that this has inspired me to do more research on T.s.sirtalis, and to perhaps work on putting a website together in the future dedicated to this species.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's an interesting tidbit for you... you might notice how SF garters and infernalis' look similar, especially where they both occur. You would think that their similarity and close proximity would mean that they are very closely related. Well, DNA tests say otherwise. The tests indicate that SF garters are more closely related to garters in other parts of the country, than they are to infernalis'. That's a head scratcher.

[PINJOHN]

I think it's common practice to raid the communal dens and ship them overseas in bulk, labeled as "northern" garter snake. More than half probably die during shipping but collecting great numbers at the Canadian dens ensures that at least some will survive the long trip.

For many years now the numbers of garters imported into Britain has drastically reduced, my understanding of the situation which may not be totally correct was that the dens in Canada,[ Manitoba and other places] were owned by the native people who collected huge amounts of parietalis and sirtalis sirtalis seeing them as a natural resource and exported them in huge numbers, this was eventually stopped by the Canadian government.
Just what the precise reason for the ban was i never heard, but ii should think it would be either massive over collection/adopting new environmental measures to protect Canadian flora fauna/ or the realization that the pits could become a tourist attraction in their own right/ or a combination of some or all of these, take your pick, my understanding is that the ban on exporting Canadian garters is still in place but as i said before i could be wrong....time i think to hear from our Canadian members.

[chris-uk]

Sorry, wasn't meant to make you feel guilty. It was more of another point why I think it's a parietalis. It's a long trip. They need to find large numbers quickly, and ship in large numbers in order for some to make to market. Parietalis fits the bill. You're not the first European to show us a red sided that was purchased as a "northern"

It is a WC snake and probably hasn't been dewormed or anything. Keep that in mind.

Guilt is but a fleeting emotion, and I can negotiate with my morals . I think I'm starting to feel the same way about the UK reptile trade as Greg, however as a man of negotiable morals I may convince myself to accept some aspects as a necessary evil - necessary to feed my garter interest anyway. I think there's more discussion to be had on a different thread.

I'm starting to formulate a quarantine plan, and de-worming is now firmly on the agenda.

[Stefan-A]

yourself doubting the validity of species, let alone subspecies, since most of the current taxonomy is based on outward appearance and geographic range instead of DNA.

I've "doubted" two separate issues in regards to species and subspecies: The permanence of current classification considering the leaps forward we've made in the last 15-20 years and the validity of the biological species concept, in contrast with other species concepts.

I do know that if subspecies were based on DNA instead of outward appearance then concinnus and pickeringi would be the same subspecies, just different color morphs.

On what grounds? Is there reproductive isolation, or do they mix randomly? Do they show a preference for their own subspecies, or do they show no particular preference at all.

For that matter, why aren't Vancouver Island northwesterns a separate subspecies? They're geographically distinct, and they tend to all be very dark or melanistic.

Being geographically distinct doesn't imply that there's reproductive isolation, which would be a basic requirement before you make a split. Another requirement would be that the population be genetically distinct from the mainland population.

If they aren't a subspecies than what does it take to make them one? If it's DNA differences then you can just invalidate many subspecies.

Reproductive isolation, not counting the rare exception. And the problem would be what, exactly?

This is the kind of debating I'm talking about. It's been going on for decades.

Not interested in kinds of debating, only the specific issue.

[chris-uk]

I said I'd get some better photos, so here's some from this evening (unfortunately not in good daylight, but at least taken with the camera on macro, as opposed to quick camera shots).
You can see that there is absolutely no pattern in the black stripes. Colour-wise, I'd described the dorsal stripe as being more grey than anything, in better light there is a yellow tinge to it. There's definitely no red, even between the scales.

Anyway, the photos (click to enlarge):











Hope you like Nobby, s/he's a good looking snake. Unfortunately the vent photos I tried weren't any better than the one I've already posted. I think we'll let Nobby grow a bit before we try with new photos.

[kibakiba]

Are you going to get another one and name it Stoppa? (Stoppa and Nobby make music one some of the bellydance CDs I have )

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking snake Chris.

Tried to do a scale count. This is what I came up with:

Lateral rows 2 & 3
Dorsal scale count of 17 or 18 (?)
7 Supralabials

[chris-uk]

Are you going to get another one and name it Stoppa? (Stoppa and Nobby make music one some of the bellydance CDs I have )

If it's female we will should rename it, Corporal Nobbs was male (allegedly). So, if we use a name of a dwarf character we negate the sex issue for Nobby, because:

"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'." (LotR, Appendix A, III)

Although on the flipside, Nobby is a good name for this snake given the debate about it's species:

Nobby is the only human known to need to carry a declaration, signed by Lord Vetinari to the effect that; "(f)ollowing affadavits from the midwife and a doctor, I confirm that the bearer is, in all probability, human." It says alot of Nobby's apperance that even Death was at a loss as to his exact species. (Hogfather )

So, Nobby is probably a parietalis, but we don't have the papers to prove it.