temperature gradient?

[PINJOHN]

just to get an argument started, is there any need for further heat for garters kept indoors?
i shall start off admitting to having heat mats, but i'm reconsidering this option for all but the baby's
you will have heard me drone on about having garters since Adam was a lad and that there were no reptile equipment suppliers of any note, well my point is that in those days before additional heating i don't seem to remember so many still borns, jelly's etc etc, they were if my memory serves me well, few and far between' and if my observation is valid i also except that this could be for other reasons, inbreeding for instance or the loss of innate vigor that some times happens to wild creatures that are bred in captivity, BUT it just might be for the reasons put forth, i have also mentioned that this is my first time allowing my snakes to breed for some years so i can not put them forward as a scientific sample in any way, in fact one years bad breeding proves nothing at all, but my two Florida blue females threw large numbers of jelly's one throwing a second clutch of them and two other females passing them also, and i just cant help making comparisons with passed experiences, without being able to quote them i have the impression that members are mentioning these kind of things more often in the threads, one that comes to mind is gregs threads on his snakes and his preparations for breeding it has to be said for those that don't know greg that you don't get many more knowledgeable or enthusiastic keepers than him and i followed his reports with interest but in spite of
weight monitoring, temperature gradients, strict observation to dietary needs, scrupulously kept records and so forth the poor man had a disaster of a season, again one incident proves nothing but it leaves me feeling uneasy,....was it really better when the snakes had to rough it [so to speak] or have i just got it out of perspective i think this is a subject worthy of discussion and hope every one will throw in their pennyworth. so i will step nimbly to one side and avoid the impending stampede

[zendragondrew]

I don't have a thermometer in the tank, but I would estimate that with the daytime basking light it would be around 80 (27) in the warm areas and with the night lamp it would be close to room temperature which can drop below 70 (21) sometimes. If she was surviving in the wild of Central Park before I would think this must be pretty comfortable.

Might be a good idea for me to grab a thermometer soon. The pamphlet that comes with the light says garter snake's ideal temp is 72 - 84 F (22 - 29 C). Think you guys are a much better source though, what do you think?

[chris-uk]

The temps in the pamphlet are in the right ballpark. I think most of us would agree that a lower temp at night isn't a problem, as long as it's not cold enough to encourage brumation. You're right about the temps we use being ideals and they are far less variable than they would find in the wild, garters are hardy and will cope outside the ideal range.

John - on additional heat, I think in our centrally heated, double-glazed houses they would be quite happy at the ambient room temperature. However, I don't think our room temperature gets high enough for southern and Central American species, so additional heat necessary. I think the increase in breeding problems is likely to be other factors rather than heat, it could be a factor, but I would be surprised if it was a significant factor.

[zendragondrew]

Hey, thanks! Good info. The brumation temp is pretty low, yeah? Like 50s or so? Don't think it ever gets that cold inside my house.

[chris-uk]

I've not brumated before, and there's a difference between a proper brumation (at around 5C I think) and just giving them a cold spell at less than 17C. Sorry, I work in Celsius, the Fahrenheit scale is plain confusing to me.

[zendragondrew]

OK. Thanks a lot. Don't think it will even drop below 17 C at all at the coldest, not indoors unless someone leaves a window open.

[EasternGirl]

Your temps seem good...I have easterns too and I keep the day temps on the warm side between 75-87 depending on if I have the heat pad turned on....and around 70-73 at night...sometimes a bit lower.

[ConcinusMan]

just to get an argument started, is there any need for further heat for garters kept indoors?

I say there most definitely is a need for supplemental heat assuming "room" temp is 68-72 F. It's important to have a gradient though so the snake can regulate it's temperature as it sees fit. Don't heat the entire tank. I know that most of the time my concinnus' preferred to warm themselves to the upper 80's. Cooler when in shed. A drop at night isn't critical but I find that especially for northwestern neonates, I have better luck keeping them eating/alive with nightly cooling. Nightly cooling also seems to increase daytime activity for all garters.

[Didymus20X6]

I keep my snakies in an unheated room, with ambient temps around 50F during the winter. I keep each section of the enclosure under a 60w incandescent bulbs during the fall and spring, and fluorescent spiral bulbs during the summer and winter. I also keep a heating pad under half of the land enclosure which I keep on except during the summer. If the snakes get warm, they migrate to the water enclosure, and if they want to warm up, they migrate back to the land enclosure and bask under the light.

[ConcinusMan]

oh yeah, forgot to address brumation. I stop feeding them first. After 5-7 days I turn off their heat which brings them to room temp. I wait about a week and then keep them at a constant 45-50 F for about 100 days. Bringing them out, I keep them in their brumation tubs at room temp for a day or two, then back into their normal enclosure and normal temperatures. They'll usually eat within a few days. Then the females shed 2-3 weeks after warming up, and that's when breeding begins. Exactly what happens largely depends on species. I'm just saying this is how it generally works for concinnus' and northwesterns.

For the first time in 20 years of working with them, I had one girl (big bertha) accept a brumated male without brumating her. I skipped brumating her since she was getting over a respiratory infection. She still mated and produced a litter of 7. That's the only time I've had an unbrumated female accept a mate.