Is this what it looks like?

[d_virginiana]

Holy crap. I knew the European Tetras were from a pretty limited stock, but I had no idea it was THAT limited!

I'd say eradication of human populations everywhere would solve a lot of the worlds problems.

Agreed. The population of my hometown is pretty limited, and no new stock has been brought in since the crossing from Europe. What's worse is that most of the capable offspring produced in that environment have found mates elsewhere and moved away! Can't imagine why

[chris-uk]

It doesn't matter one bit what the demand is for, or what people will do in the name of economics. You know as well as I do, that the market doesn't decide what should or shouldn't be done.

I disagree somewhat, the market itself doesn't decide what should be done. It's people who don't share the same ethics as you, that own pairs of tetras and realise that there is a market for them and that they could be making money - it's the individuals that own San Frans that will decide which snakes they are willing to breed from.

Except the fact that for example tetra x infernalis hybrids don't generally end up looking like tetras.

I have not evidence to either agree or disagree with this statement.

Actually, it will address the problems associated with inbreeding, not inbreeding itself. Inbreeding is inescapable. If it leads to the extinction of the captive population, so be it.

It wouldn't actually address the problems associated with inbreeding, but it would extend the number of generations where inbreeding is viable, eventually inbreeding will kill off the captive population. Inbreeding is a problem, for all the reasons that Lora and myself have mentioned already. There may be two solutions to the inbreeding issues the EU population has, either new blood (illegal) or genetic engineering (expensive and therefore not viable). It may also be that the EU snakes are so inbred already that new blood wouldn't make a lot of difference.

Make a list of the problems tetrataenia suffers from due to inbreeding, and you have your criteria.


What gene pool? There's no widening a gene pool that can be traced back to one possibly related pair, except through increased numbers to increase variation and selection to weed out the ones that shouldn't reproduce. That's a process that occurs in nature, every time a species colonizes a new area and it always starts with massive inbreeding and the samples are never perfect.

There is still a gene pool for captive EU San Frans, the size of the gene pool is the issue because you are correct that you can't widen the gene pool without increasing variation. Selection is not going to widen the gene pool, as breeding from existing tetras does not increase variation, at best it increases the number of viable pairs available for breeding that don't have any visible problems. However, culling a snake that doesn't fit the visual criteria (I say visual because I don't imagine anyone would subject baby tetras to any genetic or biochem test) actually narrows the gene pool because that snake may have been carrying the last copy of a useful gene, as well as varying from the criteria.
This is the crux of the discussion, increasing the gene pool - there is no legal way to do it and maintain a pure tetra, so the alternative of using a related subspecies would be the only legal way to introduce new genes into the pool. As you successfully argued, this would then mean you no longer have a tetra, but an intergrade that looks like a tetra.

Talking ideals:
1. Eradication of the entire captive (in)bred population of tetrataenia in Europe.
2. CITES Appendix I-listing the subspecies.

My view as to what should be done with tetras has shifted slightly. I had a naive thought that the somehow the EU population was somehow providing a safety net against the extinction of wild tetras, unfortunately I think I'm wrong there. My lofty ideal of owning some tetras, which I would have sourced from different breeders to try to put together pairs that are more distantly related, wouldn't contribute one bit to preserving a species that is beautiful enough to warrant preserving.

So, my current thinking agrees with both of your ideals, neither of which I'm in a position to influence. And I'll got back to the first paragraph of this post - while there are still people in Europe who want to pay significant amounts for pretty looking snakes, there will be people in Europe that breed them (some with good knowledge and understanding of the issues, others that don't care about anything other than selling them and turning their pair of tetras into a profit, we won't get the latter type on this forum).

So I think I've almost put the final nail in the coffin of tetra ownership in the Chris/Char household, we'll be looking for other garter species to own, appreciate, and maybe study.

[PINJOHN]

No other species in the history of the planet has caused anywhere near the negative impact as the homo sapien.

HEY Wayne watch it my family are homo sapiens........ well some of them

[kain]

No other species in the history of the planet has caused anywhere near the negative impact as the homo sapien.

But then again no other animal has reached the same "level" as us and who's to say if some other species had beaten us in the evolution race, they could have easily done the same amount of damage as we have.

I'm not saying we should continue frivolously destroying our planet etc etc, but I don't like it when people portray the whole human race as some evil cancer that needs to be purged.

[infernalis]

But then again no other animal has reached the same "level" as us and who's to say if some other species had beaten us in the evolution race, they could have easily done the same amount of damage as we have.

I'm not saying we should continue frivolously destroying our planet etc etc, but I don't like it when people portray the whole human race as some evil cancer that needs to be purged.

Generalized statement

I just got done reading the popular science article about what we have done to our oceans, You should see the satellite views of the dead zones and floating trash.

[kain]

Generalized statement

I just got done reading the popular science article about what we have done to our oceans, You should see the satellite views of the dead zones and floating trash.

I know lol, but I just wanted to use my dolphin exaple which i forgot to put in.

But lets say we weren't the "most evolved" creatures on the planet, lets say dolphins beat us, whose to say we wouldn't all be slave creatures in our dolphin overlords fish farms, in a world where its 100% water and they keep us a pets and food source on floating barges.

[Stefan-A]

I have not evidence to either agree or disagree with this statement.

Here's what you can expect:




I'm using these pictures without having asked for the owner's permission.



And to jog everyone's memory, this is what a tetrataenia looks like:

[guidofatherof5]

Watered down for sure.

[Stefan-A]

There are infernalis that are less yellow, but it'd still not look like a tetrataenia.

[mb90078]

There are infernalis that are less yellow, but it'd still not look like a tetrataenia.

Right, so breed the hybrid offspring back to a tetrataenia, and selectively breed the ones with the most favorable coloring. I'm not suggesting that merely cross breeding will solve all the problems in the first generation, or even that the results will be perfect...

Out of curiosity, have you seen multiple examples like the one above? I'm a bit curious if that is really what can be expected or if that is just one incident.