Is this what it looks like?

[BUSHSNAKE]

What should we do with the San Fran? Respect that they are a critically endangered and protected species and accept that the situation in captivity isnt gonna change. With out the collection of wild specimens all species will have the same fate...critically endangered or not.

[RedSidedSPR]

Exactly! We got 70 other species, we'll be just fine without 'em in our possesion.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan the perspective you portray is pretty narrow and idealistic. You ignore that there is a real world situation where there is a demand for San Frans, where individuals are making money from the demand, and there is no organised effort to preserve a tetrataenia as a sub species. Is the market demand for a T. sirtarlis tetrataenia, or is the market for a beautiful snake? And are the buyers willing to subject their purchases to detailed tests and examination to determine what they have is pure? In the case of San Francisco garters I fear that economics is a more significant driving force that genetics.

It doesn't matter one bit what the demand is for, or what people will do in the name of economics. You know as well as I do, that the market doesn't decide what should or shouldn't be done.

Lora also makes good points about integrades. It happens in the wild, nothing stopping a sirtalis breeding with a tetrataenia and producing viable offspring that carry the tetras looks.

Except the fact that for example tetra x infernalis hybrids don't generally end up looking like tetras.

What you suggest about increasing the breeding pairs and culling most of the young will actually lead to deeper inbreeding.

Actually, it will address the problems associated with inbreeding, not inbreeding itself. Inbreeding is inescapable. If it leads to the extinction of the captive population, so be it.

What selective criteria would you apply to the cull?

Make a list of the problems tetrataenia suffers from due to inbreeding, and you have your criteria.

They could be carrying recessive health problems that don't express for another couple of generations, by which point you have narrowed the gene pool.

What gene pool? There's no widening a gene pool that can be traced back to one possibly related pair, except through increased numbers to increase variation and selection to weed out the ones that shouldn't reproduce. That's a process that occurs in nature, every time a species colonizes a new area and it always starts with massive inbreeding and the samples are never perfect.

Now to talk ideals :
1. Compulsory register of all tetrataenia.
2. Mandatory breeding records for individual tetrataenia, tied to a microchip implanted at birth.
3. Licensing for breeders, who are forced to exchange young snakes with other breeders, with controls to ensure that the exchanges are with different breeders each year.
4. Outlaw one breeder selling offspring from a single pair as a breeding pair.
5. Require breeding documents to be supplied with each sale.
6. Restrict ownership of tetrataenia to licensed individuals, who must inform the register of intention to breed.
...... Maybe that would give tetrataenia (as the EU stock currently exists) a half decent chance of maintaining some degree of sustainability. But it's pipe dream, enforce these sort of requirements across multiple EU member states? Not going to happen.

Talking ideals:
1. Eradication of the entire captive (in)bred population of tetrataenia in Europe.
2. CITES Appendix I-listing the subspecies.

[d_virginiana]

I don't think we are as far off as you seem to believe. First you did not understand what my reference to the human genome. We are actually virtually identical to chimpanzees, my use of 98% in my original post was referring to the small portion of sequences we don't share with other primates, but this is a garter forum not an anthropology forum so I will close that point by saying that your right when you say that you can't really compare humans to captive garters, however I believe you can make parallels to illustrate the processes that are going on; the very processes you describe in your final paragraph. I don't want to discount the importance of gene flow, but I don't think we are giving the natural selection process enough love. I don't want to speak for Stefan but what I got out of his posts was that there are multiple factors causing the dilemma the European tetras are facing, yet whenever it comes up the only solution that seems to be brought up is crossbreeding with infernalis when there may be a better, with less human control, solution that may work.

I don't know enough about the stock in Europe to say we should let nature take its course and all will be well, but if it is too far gone is the point to preserve a cool looking designer snake or is it to preserve the integrity (definitions of this differ greatly, I realize that) of a species?

-Thomas

Sorry if I misunderstood you. It seemed like you were saying that there was very little genetic variation in the human population, which there is. That's why the majority aren't born with two heads or other incredibly bizarre things. In the European Tetra stock, I would be willing to bet that most of those animals are nearly genetically identical, which is what causes the problems we've been seeing.

In the European stock, the ONLY method of modifying the genetics is through human control. Natural selection doesn't have anything to do with it. All I'm saying is that, even if all the visibly unhealthy offspring were culled or not allowed to breed, that wouldn't fix this problem. Even the healthy specimens are probably inbred to a certain degree, and if they continue to breed with each other more problems are only going to crop up. The only way to avoid this in a population that small is to bring in new blood (which won't happen due to US laws regarding the San Frans). Even with responsible breeders who know what they're doing, my guess is that it is only a matter of time before this stock stops producing any significant number of healthy offspring.

In my opinion, the European Tetras ARE designer snakes; a population completely different from the wild one here in the US. They aren't in a position to help preserve the integrity of the species as a whole, but the integrity of the species in the pet trade. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with people who only want to preserve the appearance of these captive snakes. Mostly because I will never own one, and what people do with there pets is their own business so long as they're healthy and they don't release them into the wild to mess with natural gene pools. Kind of like what Shannon said, I just think there's a clear line between 'preserving the species' and 'preserving the species for the hobby', which is really what we're talking about doing here.

[infernalis]

Just to toss this out there, as it has already been said... ALL european stock trace back to one single pair of snakes.

F10?? F20?? who knows at this point.

[MasSalvaje]

Well said Lora.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I did not articulate it very well at all, nothing to be sorry about.

What gene pool? There's no widening a gene pool that can be traced back to one possibly related pair...

This will show how nieve I was to the situation. I have heard in the past but it did not register that all European stock came from a single pair. This just emphasizes the point that Lora made:

In my opinion, the European Tetras ARE designer snakes; a population completely different from the wild one here in the US. They aren't in a position to help preserve the integrity of the species as a whole, but the integrity of the species in the pet trade. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with people who only want to preserve the appearance of these captive snakes. Mostly because I will never own one, and what people do with there pets is their own business so long as they're healthy and they don't release them into the wild to mess with natural gene pools. Kind of like what Shannon said, I just think there's a clear line between 'preserving the species' and 'preserving the species for the hobby', which is really what we're talking about doing here.

I also really liked Stefans list of ideals, let me just add #3. Restore all original habitat and eradicate the human population in that area. Following these 3 steps would not only solve the little discussion we have going on, it might also solve some of the budget issues the state of California is having.

-Thomas

[mb90078]

Just to toss this out there, as it has already been said... ALL european stock trace back to one single pair of snakes.

F10?? F20?? who knows at this point.

I've heard that before, but I thought there was some debate over whether that was absolutely accurate.

[infernalis]

let me just add #3. Restore all original habitat and eradicate the human population in that area. Following these 3 steps would not only solve the little discussion we have going on, it might also solve some of the budget issues the state of California is having.

-Thomas

I'd say eradication of human populations everywhere would solve a lot of the worlds problems.

[kibakiba]

Indeed. I opt for most of granite falls' residents eradicated first.

[infernalis]

No other species in the history of the planet has caused anywhere near the negative impact as the homo sapien.