Is this what it looks like?

[d_virginiana]

Yeah, let's just cross all garter species while we're at it. It doesn't matter anyway, since they all occasionally do it in the wild.

Well, I wouldn't say they all do it. I mean, a Puget and a Florida Blue Stripe would never have the chance to mate in the wild since they both have relatively isolated habitats. But, if you ask me the chance of picking up a Florida Blue Stripe without some Sirtalis in its lineage is kinda low. I imagine the same thing has happened to the wild Tetras in the US.

I don't know if it is an instinct to bring in new genetics or just chance, but it seems like when wild animals are put in a small, fragmented habitat with a small gene pool, you start to see a lot of intergrades popping up. I'd be really surprised if this hasn't happened to the wild US Tetras already. There aren't many, and they share a home range with other species they could easily breed with. Just as an example, NC is home to the last wild population of Red Wolves. There are less than 200, and they are isolated in a swamp wildlife reserve in Manteo. Only problem is, since there aren't many of them, the bloodlines are getting quickly diluted due to coyote crossbreeding. Same thing happens among quite a few amphibian species as well. I just wonder if crossbreeding among the Tetras is the natural next step for a compromised population..

[infernalis]

I have been talking off and on with a Californian who works construction and is involved in the preservation of the species... Meaning that ANY tetrataenia encountered on the job site MUST be relocated to a safer place.

He has indicated to me that the government population census is taken from public lands and completely overlooks the vast privately owned farms, vineyards, orchards and forests.

So with that, I would be inclined to believe there is less of a gene pool problem in the wild populations than most of us speculate.

The sad part about that photo, it was taken by a CASUAL collector who is not a breeder, he does not care about the genetics, all he saw that day was some pretty garter snakes making more pretty garter snakes.

[chris-uk]

The sad part about that photo, it was taken by a CASUAL collector who is not a breeder, he does not care about the genetics, all he saw that day was some pretty garter snakes making more pretty garter snakes.

And back to the original topic... That is one of the main issues with the photo. Casual collector buys one of the babies from this mating, couple of years down the line decides to sell it on to someone who is looking for a new breeding snake without realising or informing the breeder that it's an intergrade.
For all we know, in the European population this could have already happened and quite possibly more than once. If the offspring that are sold as tetras look like tetras it's extremely unlikely that anyone other than a breeder who introduces the intergrade would know they are circulating. Knowing that a tetrataenia/infernalis cross has happened once and assuming if it's happened before it was done quietly without photos, it kind of undermines confidence I would have in buying a tetra.

[PINJOHN]

i have tried to get this debate going before but it just didn't happen, this time however its a lot better, it needs to be said that this is not about absolute right or wrong, its about your opinion on whether its right or wrong,
during any debate/discussion/argument what tends to happen is the waters get muddied as discussion veers of topic, so its important to stress the one overriding principal that we all hold dear is that we dont wish to see garters go the way of corns and others with mixed gene pools, and yes i know i have already made this point but its worth repeating as we can then restrict our arguments to the tetra and the unique set of circumstances that pertain to that snake, and this snakes circumstances really are unique in fact you just could not make them up we start with a snake that is thought by many to be the most colorful and attractive serpent in the whole of the USA and beyond, that is followed by its endangered status followed closely by rules that on face value are supposed to protect it but in reality prevent the people who could achieve this from doing so.
the next [you couldn't make it up fact ] is that here in Europe we are perfectly free to own them/ LOOK....... there are many more facts to relate on this but the message i am trying to drive home is every single thing about this snake and its circumstances is UNIQUE, for me the rules we impose on ourselves for other garters just don't apply to the European population of these snakes,
there are lots of members who's opinions are read with interest and respect on this forum so i hope they will all take the time to share those opinions,

[infernalis]

It is of my firm opinion that this pairing is not a unique situation, and it is extremely likely that it has happened several or more times in many snake collections by many casual snake keepers who could care less if those tetras bred another tetra or any other garter snake for that matter.

[PINJOHN]

It is of my firm opinion that this pairing is not a unique situation, and it is extremely likely that it has happened several or more times in many snake collections by many casual snake keepers who could care less if those tetras bred another tetra or any other garter snake for that matter.

i would have no problem accepting what you say Wayne as it seems to be a likely scenario, but for one nagging doubt, if many casual keepers had indeed committed this deceitful act then would the Euro tetra be exhibiting such inbred tendencies,

[infernalis]

i would have no problem accepting what you say Wayne as it seems to be a likely scenario, but for one nagging doubt, if many casual keepers had indeed committed this deceitful act then would the Euro tetra be exhibiting such inbred tendencies,

Judging by my conversation with this bloke, Money was not of any interest here, he's very fluid financially.

That's where things get "tricky", if several casual keepers allow this to happen, then give away the offspring, or sell them cheaply in bulk... well you get the idea.

We are a unique lot here, most of the general public (who like snakes as "pets") could give a rats arse about genetics or purity of the bloodlines.

One reason why albino chequered garter snakes are so popular in the trade is they are cheap to buy.

As fanciers of all things Thamnophis, we all know that snake is another heavily inbred animal, but the people who frequent the pet shops only see a pretty snake that is small, cheap and easy to care for.

Then take it home and feed it goldfish.

[PINJOHN]

i take your point Wayne that this wasn't necessarily done with nefarious aims, but it still remains that the tetra being bought over here are allegedly having health problems which shouldn't be happening if their gene pool had been widened to any significant degree.

[infernalis]

i take your point Wayne that this wasn't necessarily done with nefarious aims, but it still remains that the tetra being bought over here are allegedly having health problems which shouldn't be happening if their gene pool had been widened to any significant degree.

I get you point mate..

I just wish that our government would ease up and allow private keepers to breed tetras in the US, it would certainly keep the species alive and well on the planet long after all suitable habitats are finally gone.

I also realize that as soon as that happened, poaching them from the wild would suddenly become a viable means of income and temptation in today's economy would be too great.

[PINJOHN]

poaching from the wild would only happen while tetra's fetch a high price, the answer might be for the government to [for a short period ] subsidize licensed breeders to produce large numbers for release on a given day to the hobby at reasonable prices ............do you know what Wayne reading what i'v just written doesn't even convince me ,so forget that idea i'm stumped