Toothless Pics

[brain]

The varied colors will always lead me to my confusion. I look at Toothless and can barely see any red spots, then compare what I have I see s a very close resemblance to the T.s.fitchior even T.s. concinnus.

Like the other tread on SF Garters where some would same T.s. infernalis is just T.s. tertaenia without bars, all very confusing. I guess scale count would always be the precise way to tell them apart.

I guess after time I will be able to see the difference.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, I hear you. Supposedly, the only thing that makes a subspecies is morphology and range, and sometimes, a difference in habitat preference. Even though your snake does look a lot like a fitchi, where they are located tells me they're not. The differences in morphology are very subtle but they are there. But there's no denying that range indicates that your red spotted snakes are pickeringi.

Just remember that technically, oregon red spotted, pugets, valley garters.. they're all the same species so it's really splitting hairs to say which subspecies is which. Some people question the validity of subspecies altogether. These are all essentially the same T. sirtalis. Once again, the only difference is morphology and range.

I went through this before about the difference between a laterally striped concinnus and a fitchi. Those two also look so much alike it can be difficult to tell the difference. The only thing that helps you to become very good at distinguishing the two, is to have personally seen many examples of both. Also, they're ranges only overlap in one or two very small areas. In those areas, snakes show characteristics of both. (intergrades). Fitchi found inside the range of infernalis is a good example. The two look more like each other in those areas so they're hard to tell apart. Similarly, pugets, oregon red spots, and fitchi look more like each other, in the areas where they overlap or come close to each other's range. It's easier to just think of them all as T. sirtalis that vary in morphology according to location and genetic isolation from each other.

Anyway, once you've seen enough northwest fitchi's you can spot the difference between those and concinnus or pickeringi right away. The colors aren't quite the same, and there's other more subtle clues.

Let me show you what a fitchi looks like in WA state. (see the video and you'll see it's different than your snakes) Only in the columbia river gorge near the intermountain zone, are intergrades found because for the most part, fitchi are east side snakes, concinnus are west of the mountains. There's just a small zone where snakes show characteristics of both. And on the WA coast, concinnus' look more like pickeringi and tend to have lateral stripes too.

Fitchi pretty much look like this snake in the video in WA and Canada. Fitchi would be found much farther inland. The farther inland you go, fitchi will dominate and you'll stop seeing pickeringi. Fitchi stay away from the coast where you and I are, and prefer a drier climate than pickeringi.

T.s. fitchi. Take a good look at the head and facial markings, and the color / stripe definition. You can see it's different than your snakes.

[katach]

Toothless has no red. She only has the very bright yellow turning to green dorsal stripe, and a almost stitched green lateral markings. Cotton is the same. They are jet black otherwise.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess scale count would always be the precise way to tell them apart.

No, that wouldn't work. They are both sirtalis' and so the scales are the same. The first sirtalis ever described was of course, easterns. Then as snakes were found as you go west, any that share key physical traits, especially scale counts, were classified as T. sirtalis subspecies. If the scales were different, they wouldn't have been classifed as T. sirtalis.

Of course, DNA would be the best way to find the true relationships. This might come as a surprise, but DNA reveals that in spite of their close proximity to each other, and their superficial resemblance, SF garters and CA red sides are actually more closely related to other sirtalis' in other parts of the country, some of which look nothing like them, than they are to each other.

[ConcinusMan]

The varied colors will always lead me to my confusion. I look at Toothless and can barely see any red spots

That's funny, I didn't think toothless had any red spots. He's not a red phase puget. Of course, he's not a blue one either. So, why not look at the subtle clues. Take a look at the head/facial markings, the pale greenish color, and the lateral stripes. They're really not so different.



Once again, T.s fitchi. Starting to see what I mean? Look at enough of both and you can see it gets easier to tell.

[ConcinusMan]

To add to the confusion, and yet to simplify I.D. :

Laterally striped T.s. concinnus. Once again, range is the key to eliminating the confusion. This particular phenotype in T.s. concinnus is found in extreme SW WA staying close to the Columbia River then northward only in coastal WA. T.s. fitchi and T.s. pickeringi do not share this range, just as T.s. fitchi does not live on Vancouver Island. The farther north along the WA coast you travel, the more they begin to look more like T.s. pickeringi


It's just easier to think of them all as the same species with gradual changes in morphology. Over time, geographic separation due to natural barriers and genetic isolation creates the various subspecies.

[ConcinusMan]

If it seems confusing, then good. It is confusing. More DNA sampling of all garter snakes is needed to get a clearer picture of the true relationships and that work has only begun.

Best to just get this book. Amazon.com: The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (Animal Natural History Series) (9780806128207): Douglas A. Rossman, Neil B. Ford, Richard A. Seigel: Books


If you've read the older version of this book, you would see how our understanding of garter snakes (and all life in general) has changed dramatically by using DNA, since the first version, which was based solely on morphology and range that we can see which has a high degree of plasticity. What we can't see is more important, and that can only be revealed by decades of DNA sampling until all garter snakes have been DNA tested and mapped.

[ConcinusMan]

I've been getting new reports of the various puget morphs from places in WA state. Apparently, most pugets from near the Seattle area are the light greenish white striped color morph but to a lesser degree, there are a few red phase pugets occasionally found in the area around Bellvue. The spots are small orange flecks. Not quite as red as Vancouver B.C. red phase snakes but still it's interesting. And we already know that red phase dominates the north sound and Vancouver B.C. In the south sound in Thurston and Pierce Counties, blue phase dominates. What I lack now is enough reports to get a clear picture of what pugets look like on the west side of the sound.

[katach]

If it helps, the ones we have are the only colorings I've seen. I've lived in the same area for almost 30yrs.

[ConcinusMan]

And that's the first ones I've seen that look quite like yours. That's good and I appreciate the info. I forget exactly where it was found though.